THe Matrix Trilogy thread

[shivadee]

very very good points Rommel. I can agree with you on most of what you say. What you say does make more sense.

However the question i have is this. If the virus was created as an obsession of Smith how did he get his abilities? Now Smith thinks some of NEO copied onto him, but i dont think this is right. THE ONE cannot be copied or cloned or else all the agents would be all powerful and if it was  SMITH could not have been deleted, which he was.

THE ONE was created by the ORACLE because she cannot be destroyed as well. It shows us this because when SMITH clones the ORACLE he posseses NEOs abilities. He becomes NEO's opposite. The ORACLE can see what happens in the furture, but she cannot see past her choice. She knows she must give up herself to Smith so NEO can fight, but she doesnt know why and therefore does not know the outcome. When she makes the choice THEN Smith becomes NEO's opposite, she tells NEO before hand. At the end of the movie both THE ORACLE and NEO understand what happens. THE ORACLE understands her choice and NEO understands his purpose.

NEO is there for balance, but for BOTH worlds. HE makes a deal and stays true to it. The result is harmony both in and out of the Matrix. THe age old war is over and the machines do not threaten the suposed escalating threat of numbers in ZION and those that want out of THE MATRIX are freed no questions asked. THe machines benefit too. No one tries to screw with them again, and those oblivious to the Matrix will remain there. WHo says everyone wants to be freed? Only those that want to be will be, plus they have an unlimited supply of humans, they can produce as much as they choose. HArmony and balance is achieved as a result of NEO sacrificing himslef.

SMITHS ability could have been taken back at any time. Remember HE ALONE was destroyed NOT THE ORACLE. SHe cannot be, she is necessary for the Matrix to exist AND is responsible for THE ONE code, neither can be deleted                    

[PapaSmurf]

you know something......maybe if Rampage and Guru wrote the source code for the Matrix we in right now life would be as perfect as GATT message boards lol                    

[Rommel]

where was it said/mentioned/implied that the oracle created the code of the one?
you are speculating because of the unclear way that smith gained his power for the final battle


because smith became a virus, he has the abilites of copying himself over anything connected to the matrix
it is this ability that makes him a virus
note that he cannot copy what he is overriding
rather he is simply hijacking the "program/file"

the oracle needs protection
she survived her attack (which was most likely put in because the original actress died and to explain the "new" oracle) but I doubt that she has the power of neo
and the theory that because she cannot be destroyed then she created the one is somewhat lacking

because if the oracle is that powerful why is such a roundabout method
why have a one at all
or then why not have the TWO, or the THREE, or the HUNDRED
and then why isn't the architecht that powerful
because if he was then why didn't he intervene directly
or at least make more powerful agents
since the oracle made the one
if the architecht isn't as powerful as the oracle
then why do/did the machines allow this matrix to stay as is
yes the oracle is the key to the supersmith
but perhaps he learned something that allowed for his power
it is speculation that the other smiths were not as powerful, (with regards to the strength etc. not the oracle's vision)
since we did not see them fight
remember smith is obsessed with defeating neo
he wouldn't fight with all his clones( supposedly, ALL theories about this topic is speculation)
however what if the combined might of the entire matrix was what gave smith his power
as it was the matrix that cause the anomily
why could it not happen again?
or what if the rest of the matrix is the opposite of the one anomily (in a way as it is everything else)?
or what if by controling the rest of the matrix?
smith learned how to become that powerful
what if only one smith could have the power?

we can also assume that smith assimilated the architecht
since it is somewhat clear that the entire matrix was assimilated
and he has access to the back corridor

yes NEO's purpose was to end the cycle of control
but how is it that the code allows for manipulation/sight of the machine code in real life
how does the oracle have this much power
if she did why does she not do something more directly

it is improbably that the oracle is either indestructable or the creator of the one ANOMILY
because then that only raises plot hole galore
rember she was just a low level program

but yes she did have to allow herself to be taken
for the war to end

but then what about the indian girl at the end
how come that smith wasn't as powerful as NEO? ( if he wasn't supposed to be)

you see there are many plotholes
you are trying to explain too many away
but at the same time you are creating more and seem to be ignoring some
rather you have to discount what is known to be the influence of the process of the movie making
and then work with everything else

oh I think that the girl is a new form of (artifical)life, (born of two programs, not created by one)
and she perhaps has power similar to the one
due to the nature of her creation
she was put in the movie as a message/sign of hope

her only other reason is that the source/part of the source of simth's super powers was from her
(yes I know that it was the oracle "smith" that fought NEO, I am just trowing out a theory)                    

[shivadee]

It is very clear she cannot be destroyed. She along with other programs like SATI and SERAPH. WHy do you think she gives them cookies to eat before smith comes along? What exactly does a cookie do? A cookie is a sort of reminder of where you were, it logs the entry. In this case the cookie is a form of protection. Why do you think she gives them candy and cookies? In REVOLUTIONS when she is making cookies with SATI she says to go test them by SERAPH and see if they are ready. That wasnt a little joke,it was for their protection. Agin in M1 she does the same. She gives NEO one to eat. What happens to NEO? He gets shot and supposedly DIES but is ressurected (so to speak) If NEO can die but THE ONE cannot how come he did not DIE and the code trasfered to another? Simple, it was the cookies that protected him, However since NEO is special, and not a program like SATI and SUCH something different happens, his resurrection.


From the ENTER THE MATRIX game we understand how they link the old and new oracle together. Actually when Gloria Foster died they came up with an entirely new story incorporating SATI (indian girl) into the story.

In Enter the Matrix Niobie and Ghost meet the new ORACLE. She explains the entire story to them here, again with her angles and things for you to understand. We also learn a couple things about SERAPH

-Scene switch to the Oracle, she's in a room. -Seraph enters-

Oracle : Thank you for coming so quickly.
Seraph : You have no need to thank me. I am forever indebted to you.
Oracle : It is now I who needs your help.

Oracle : Time has grown so short. The shadow has already begun to spread.
Seraph : Does the One know?
Oracle : No, not yet.

Seraph : Will he succeed?
Oracle : There are so many factors. Between here and there, there are so
many choices, and so much fear.

What IS seraph? Some people think he was a previous ONE. Maybee he was supposed to be destroyed when he choose to reeboot the matrix and lost his CODE and the ORACLE saved him. Maybee he was one of MERV's men who betrayed him

They call him WINGLESS and JUDAS in Revolutions.

again in the ETM script

Oracle : The truth is, that the path of the One is made by the many.

* This scene was in Reloaded, it is where Niobe accepts to search for the
Neb. and and switches between the ETM and RELOADED movie cut scenes.

Woman : Are there two among you who would answer such a call?
Oracle : Each of us has our own steps to take. Our own choices to make.
Niobe : Captain Niobe of the Logos will answer the Councilors' call.
Oracle : And if but one fails, all fail.

-Niobe meets the Oracle-

Oracle : Niobe.
Niobe : Do I know you?
Oracle : You know me, though you may not recognize me.
Niobe : Are you telling me that you are the Oracle?
Oracle : I know this won't be easy for any of you. Change never is. I wish
the face you remember was the face that I was still wearing. But
that face is gone.
Niobe : If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are.
Oracle : You don't right now, but you will.
Niobe : Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you?
Oracle : Come on Niobe, you know that I can't do that.
Niobe : Why not?
Oracle : Because I can't make you do anything.
Niobe : At least you sound the same.
Oracle : As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am
beneath remains the same.
Niobe : Can I ask what happened?
Oracle : The Merovingian warned me that if I made a certain choice, it would
cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.
Niobe : What was the choice?
Oracle : The same one you yourself will have to make -- the choice to help
Neo or not.
Niobe : Then Neo is alive?
Oracle : Yes. He touched the Source and separated his mind from his body.
Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.
Niobe : Can we free him?
Oracle : Trinity can. But she will have to fight her way through h*ll to do
it.
Niobe : Can I help?
Oracle : That's why I called. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All
I can do is hope that if you are given the chance, you will find
the courage to do what you can.
Niobe : You once told me you knew everything you needed to.
Oracle : I do. I know everything from the begining from this path to the
end.
Niobe : I don't understand.
Oracle : Even I can't see beyond the end.
Niobe : The end. Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end?
Oracle : Yes, if we cannot save it, it will end.
Niobe : You mean Neo?
Oracle : I mean we. The path of the One is made by the many. I have a role
to play, just as you have yours.

-Seraph enters the room-

Seraph : It is time.
Oracle : You must go now.
Niobe : Wait. I need more information. How will I know what to do?
Oracle : There is an old Chinese proverb I've always liked. "The heart never
speaks, but you must listen to it to know." You'll know, Niobe. You
always do.

-Niobe leaves with Seraph. Both exits in the Programmors maintenance
corridor-

Seraph : I wish you luck and courage.
Niobe : Thanks. Same to you.


-Ghost meets the Oracle-

Oracle : You must be Ghost?
Ghost : Who are you?
Oracle : I am the Oracle.
Ghost : If that's true, then what's my response to that postulate?
Oracle : Truth is an event, and only through experience can the veracity of
a truth be verified.
Ghost : William James.
Oracle : You're asking me to prove it?
Ghost : Can you?
Oracle : I can tell you that I only remember bits and pieces of my past. I
don't remember your face, but I remember your heart. You asked
me one question, if she would ever love you? I told you, only as
a friend, as her brother. Yes, I remember that smile. I recall
asking what you were thinking, but I can't remember what you said.
Ghost : I thanked you.
Oracle : Why?
Ghost : Because I felt freed.
Oracle : From what?
Ghost : Expectation.

-The Oracle smiles-

Ghost : Can you tell me what happened to you?
Oracle : Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my
original shell to the Merovingian.
Ghost : Why did they do that?
Oracle : For love. For the life of their child.
Ghost : You knew about it, and yet you let it happen?
Oracle : I had to.
Ghost : Why?
Oracle : Because the child is important. I can't tell you why, but I believe
one day, the child will change both our world and your world
forever.
Ghost : Is that why you called for me?
Oracle : No. I am trying to prepare those that stand in the front lines of
our coming trial. We stand upon the edge of a precipice, the fall
from which we will not return. Each of us must find courage, when
we are most afraid to do what we must. That is our only hope.

-Seraph enters the room-

Seraph : We must go.
Ghost : Thank you.
Oracle : Ghost, you still love her, don't you?
Ghost : As much as she loves another.
Oracle : That is a hard path to walk.
Ghost : Nietzsche said it best "One must want nothing to be different --
not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not only bear what
is necessary, but to love it."
Oracle : Armor fati. You're a good man, Ghost. If somehow we do survive,
if the path does continue, I hope it is made by others like you.

-Ghost thanks the Oracle-
-Seraph and Ghost exits to the programmers maintenance corridor-

Seraph : I wish you luck and courage.
Ghost : Same to you.

-Seraph leaves Ghost-



SATI does have a special purpose. We see 2 things she shows us in the Matrix Trilogy.

1. We learn that the difference between humans and programs is not emotion but CHOICE.  Rama Kandra has love for his daughter and wife, as do they all but when they choose to keep SATI it must be done at a price, since she posesses no purpose inside the MATRIX.

2. She ALWAYS says "good morning" . When NEO wakes in THe trainstation and when she sees the cat after the Matrix is rebooted. Then she raises the SUN. The dawn of a new era, the start of a new MATRIX that is without fear and suffering, where people are free to leave as they choose. It's one of the many intonations seen in the movie. Its a symbol of a new era.

SMITH and NEO were evenly matched. The have become opposites. We see that NEO had to give himself up because they would just continue fighting forever and no one would win. No one WAS winning realy. We see NEO like he was tired, but again, he is in the MATRIX and he cannot GET tired, and then he gets renewed strength to fight in the crater etc etc.

only ONE smith fights NEO because only ONE smith cloned into the ORACLE and what do we know about THE CODE of the one? It cannot be coppied or deleted hence the other SMITHS do not have the power. Only one, and that one has the sight of THE ORACLE as well, but again he can only see up to a point. THis is where yousee SMITH get confused in the end, it was supposed to be inevitable, but since the ORACLE doesnt know the outcome neither does he.
ANother point is that smith says that only that spuer smith was going to fight NEO and the others were just going to stand by and watch. He says this before they begin. We all know NEO went into the Matrix for the last time with the intention of kickin SMITH's @ss but it turned out that it wasnt his purpose.

again this is just my theory on this last matter we are talkin about. Of course next thing you know both ah we talking sh!t and the W. Bros come out and make we look like 2 @ss, buh say wah is good fun to rack yuh brain to think. Untill then we could debate. You are actually one ofthe first ppl that actually giving mih a run for mih money in this debate. Some VERY good and strong arguments.                    

[Anonymous]

argh
please make it stop
lets talk abt the best anime out there
naruto                    

[shivadee]

you should make a Naruto thread D00D!!

yeah the Matrix talk gets REALLY deep when you start to analyze.                    

[Rommel]

what if the oracle simply survived?
like agent smith

oh Seraph worked for the Merovingian.
this was plainly stated in revolutions.

remember that just because the oracle has certain abilites doesn't mean that she is all powerful
but due to the fact that she doesn't do anything dierectly, we can assume that she has no ability to do much herself
in movies, if it didn't happen then it doesn't exist, unless in other media but she remains as a guide

also your point of the cookies is interesting, if not a bit much speculating
while I will agree to most of it, and this theory explains how the oracle suvives, giving an alternate theory that the oracle herself is indestructable, I don't think that NEO survived the gunshots due to the cookie
that was a direct result of the abilites of the anomily, remember he can save others from death in the matrix
as he did with trinity

you are right about smith but your second point was similar to what I previously posted

I still think that there is no real explenation as to how smith became so powerful
perhaps it was a combination of his abilites as the smith virus plus the knowledge/wisdom gained from the oracle
remember, when he cloned himself over Sati, that clone did not seem to have special powers(speculation)

btw your second point about Sati is also similar to what I previously posted

however I think that the only real difference now between humans and machines is the nature of their physical bodies

but this is getting tiresome
I didn't really look hard to understand the story of the matrix trilogy much except right after I saw the movie
I don't see it as all that complex (your theories make it more so lol)
but I still have to think about things when I post on this topic and I am getting bored/tired


how about Star Wars?
I think you said something about the expanded universe

those bastards killed Chewie :damnit:

how many novels do you own/read? (if any)                    

[shivadee]

Agreed Rommel. We can argue these theories till dooms day and still not come to a conclusion. Star wars it is!!!                    

[MisterX]

I have a question who or what created the oracle?                    

[shivadee]

who created the Matrix, The Architect, the Agents.............same thing.........The Machines did. The ones in 01.                    

[MisterX]

So why she does help the humans?                    

[shivadee]

Its not really "help" the humans as try to make the place imperfect for the humans to exist so they dont wake up in the Matrix. The Architect made a perfect Matrix and it fail, so they incorporated a program using the emotions and qualities of humans to try to make the place more "liveable" for humans. THis was the Oracle. (see the Architect speech again)

She is there to unbalance the Matrix (as she says in Rev). Although it causes headache for the Machines (so to speak) it is necessary to keep the Matrix running properly. Humans prefer an imperfect world rather than a perfect one.                    

[MisterX]

oh thanks that really helped cleared my head a bit! Thank you!
                   

[Rommel]

She is there to unbalance the Matrix (as she says in Rev).  

she actually says this?
I think that the matrix is imperfect (remember that is the term used, not unbalanced) and she is there because she understands and emphatises with the humans
if she had a robot body the eyes would be green

I think that the real divergence of our understanding of the plot is in the word used, imperfect vs unbalanced
when I started off on this thread I used the word unbalanced too but to me that seemed wrong as the train of thought that I had when using that word seemed different to what I had come to understand when I saw the movie

but that is not to say that you are necessarily wrong

I just think you are                    

[shivadee]

Taken right off the Revolutions script:

Neo: The Architect told me that if I didn't return to the Source, Zion would be destroyed by midnight tonight.

Oracle: *rolls eyes* Please... You and I may not be able to see beyond our own choices, but that man can't see past any choices.

Neo: Why not?

Oracle: He doesn't understand them - he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose: to balance an equation.

Neo: What's your purpose?

Oracle: To unbalance it.

I mean they spell it out for you in this little dialogue                      

[PapaSmurf]

Thus sufficent proof why one should turn the TV off after Neo walks out of the Architects room.

You cannot escape the Matrix, programs on top of programs.                    

[Rommel]

that is her role in "life"
one which she has taken upon herself
that is not her "progammed" purpose
nor is it the reason she was created by the machines                    

[shivadee]

SHe was created by the machines to unbalance the Matrix. She litteraly tells us that. It is possibly the only thing she litterally means in the whole trilogy since she gives us so many runarounds. However HOW she unbalances things is her business, she has characteristics given to her that regular programs do not have, emotion, feelings, human morals. Her program tells her to do that, she cannot do anything else.
"
Neo: But why help us?

The Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in
one thing, Neo, the future. And believe me, I know - the only way to get there
is together. "


But you may be right from your perspective. From the Architects point of view she may not be doing her duty, but from her point of view she is. The point being these are 2 programs that are opposite to each other and both are needed for the Matrix to work. They may both be right, but only the Oracle is right for the 6th ONE's purpose in the Matrix and the Architect is right for the 6th version of the Matrix for the machines.                    

[Rommel]

SHe was created by the machines to unbalance the Matrix.  

ho ho ho no

the architech clearly states that the oracle was created as a program that would seek to understand humans

you are confusing their destinies and the reason they were created by the machines

and the characteristics of emotion, feelings and morality is not limited to her, remember sati's parents had feelings
smith had emotions
the ma.....vinchian (can't be bothered with the spelling) feels emotion as does persephone


I think that you are starting to think about this too hard
Rommel whistles at how far out shiva's theories are
I think that some concepts were not really properly explained in order to not limit the storytelling
I have noticed that anime seems to do this more freely than western films which tells the story in an obvious manner                    

[shivadee]

cool :cool:

Possibly i am over analyzing. The movie can lead you in all sorts of directions.