Gopio awards: A plea for equality or an attempt to segregate

[Kayode]

But then that's just me...and there are MANY other people on both sides of that argumentative fence who won't even come to a compromise as such...

Why compromise when we have Mr Patrick to show them Indian who is boss?                    

[TrinireturnofGamez]

the cross isn't even originally a christian symbol , it was origonally a roman symbol, and the Egyptians had a cross like symbol called the 'Akh' thousands of years before that.  
   Most other countries have cross based awards, the english have the Victorias cross, the germans the Iron cross...  ,  its just a symbol .
  Heck the pope has an upside down cross on his seat, all the stupid people and satanists thought it meant he was evil... but actually the upside down cross is a symbol of St. Peter long before it became one of the occult .                    

[silk]

It's nice to think that u consider yourself one of "THEM".  But "THEY" as i used it doesn't refer to those who object to Trinity Cross as a National Symbol.  Gee, probably the overwhelming majority of persons in the island don't care, or feel offended.  You think i personally care whether it's a Trinity Cross, Trinity Bowl, Trinity Moon, Order of Trinidad & Tobago ??
How many ppl u think actually care ??  

I use "THEY" to refer to those that see it as an opportunity to further divide the country. To cause political mischief, to stir up tribalism, etc.  There is a HUGE difference between the immediate above, and persons opposed to the Trinity Cross as our National Symbol.  

Ok, why don't you form an Independent Group to lobby for it yourself ??
Maybe then u'll see that your goals and GOPIO's are not and will NEVER be the same.
But to be fair i will give my evidence ......

How come in our multicultural and multiracial society, the Yorubas eh have no quarrel. The Buddists eh have no quarrell.  Even Christians who have objections to the symbols and images eh makin no big scene ??  Even Atheists eh making no trouble....

Get me straight.  I in NO WAY subscribe to or PRACTISE discrimnation.  But i am not going to pretend that the Trinity Cross issue is a lobby for equality.  Equality by itself is a MYTH and something that will NEVER BE achieved in any man made system.  I am not going to present a case for GOPIO and those of similar ilk. I look at the bigger picture.  
The very nature of our country dictates that NO ethinic group, religious group or groups otherwise will ever be totally happy about the representation of symbols and awards at the National Level.  Remember the steelpan and dholak issue ??  So making a case for evey disgruntled national is an exercise in FUTILITY.  If you do it for GOPIO, do it for ALL.  Then you will see the chaos that will emerge.  You think "THEY"  and we both know who i taking 'bout', really care about changing the Trinity Cross  Well it coulda change between 1995 and 2001 and it never change.  Gee, i suppose it just offended some after 2001.  i NOT supporting political mischief.....And "THEY"  does be glad when ppl like you could lend your quite informed support to "THEIR" Machiavellian schemes.

Against the TC, form an independent body, that comprises a wider cross section of society that are against the TC. And believe u me, u'll get lots of ppl.                    

[Kayode]

I use \"THEY\" to refer to those that see it as an opportunity to further divide the country. To cause political mischief, to stir up tribalism, etc.  

 
That's both GOPIO and the people who refuse to change (or even consider changing) the Cross.


Just because nobody is making as big a fuss as them doesn't mean that nobody else is bothered. It just means that nobody else is bothered enough to do anything about it.

Equality by itself is a MYTH and something that will NEVER BE achieved in any man made system.

So is Order. And Happiness. And Justice. And Peace.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards the ideal.


By dealing with the Cross, it's possible to increase equality and shut GOPIO up (if only for a while). Yuh kill two bird with one stone.

You approaching this with a kinda frig up mindset. We can never have true equality, and yuh want to spite GOPIO, so to hell with the whole issue.


You letting GOPIO blind you to the topic at hand.


The fact, with all politics and rhetoric removed, is that the Trinity Cross is not a true representation of excellence in Trinidad and Tobago.

When we deal with that matter, the public trust will have been served, and GOPIO will have one less thing to politically exploit.

See how simple?                    

[silk]

Why compromise when we have Mr Patrick to show them Indian who is boss?

Name calling  Tsk Tsk.  How unprofessional !!   Shows though, like i said, it's more than just changing the TC.

What does Prime Minister Patrick Manning have to do with the TC, or its changing ??  You really are one of "THEM".     lol lol.

What he can do is ignore a frivilous attempt at mischief and focus on running the country.  And i reiterate,  i am NOT against changing the TC.  I will not allow myself to be used by GOPIO and in general by persons with their own hidden agenda.  If, Kayode any serious group of people genuinely interested in having the TC changed, lobbied for it, there ain't a thing PM could do about it.  Such a lobby though will not remotely resemble the overtly racist agenda of groups like GOPIO.  And i not blinded by GOPIO.  There have always been and will always be thousands  of ppl against ANY national symbol.  This has never been so touch an issue for anybody in T&T. All of ah sudden, TC is a problem, the steelpan is a problem. So u think i blinded by GOPIO ?  So why YOU never lobby against before in your life if you find is such a big problem ??  Why Nobody never lobby against it before, if is such a big problem  And why the membership of GOPIO never ask the govenment between 1995 -2001 to change it, if is such a big problem  And i blinded by GOPIO ??

Lol....GOPIO making it a problem. True, many Trinis mightn't like it but it low low down on we list of priorities.  It ain't no big deal as u trying to make it.  In fact, is only a problem for Anti - Manning people, and GOPIO.

What wasn't a problem for 6 years could NEVER be so big a problem today.  Whappen, ppl does ketch a vaps and realise the TC offensive ??
Maybe none were given out by the non-Christian government between 1995 - 2001.  You quote real history in yuh posts,  well tell me this one ?
Hmmmm, have any Non-Christian ever recieved the TC ??  

You could answer any of these  And i blinded ??

Of all the ppl against the TC, and i ain't quoting no names, cause we both know the 3 most vocal ppl....and well you is the 4th.  Allyuh have one thing in common....Dislike for Patrick Manning,  and incarnations of him(Thas for the Anti - Cross man from waaay back)....

LIVE WITH IT !!!!!

I done....i wasting time here.....Good Day Mr Kayode.......

---- What Mr Manning do you ? ---

---- Let GOPIO be your Guide ---  EQUALITY 4 ALL !!! -----                    

[TriniXaeno]

lol @ trinity bowl.

Fellas, kick brass topic and kick brass contributions.

Let us be reminded that if we detiorate into bitter rants and personal attacks that we will lose the essence of this thread. It is much less about attackin baego/sensei/kayode/silk and much more about tacklin the issue.

Pros and Cons.

Get passionate by all means, but don't get personal.

cool? cool.

In this particular scenario...I think we can safely say that history provides us with the trinity cross and GOPIO is a step in the wrong direction.

If sufficient people have a problem with it and the current government refuses to address the issue after sufficient protest, the best they can hope for is a change of government and attacking the issue again.

still lol @ trinity bowl                    

[Kayode]

Yuh new here, so yuh clueless, but it's no big secret on the forum that I have scant regard for politicians in general. I diss everyone from Sat Maharaj to Cudjoe to Uncle Bas. Anyone in here can vouch for that. Even those who disagree with me on this issue. I'm not anti-Manning. I anti-politicians and the morons who follow them.

So please...don't put anything political into my motives. I don't vote. I have no respect for any of the parties we have to choose from. I realise that you want to jump to an easy conclusion, but yuh can't do that with me. What I say is what I mean.





Plenty PNMites and Afro-Christians want the Trinity Cross to remain for the same reason GOPIO wants it removed. It reflects (among other things) Afro-Christian dominance.

Regardless of who's received it, it's a religious symbol that's embraced primarily by Afro-Christians.




And just as an aside...

In 1997 an independent National Awards Committee, chaired by Trinidad & Tobago’s Chief Justice Micheal de la Bastide, recommended that the Trinity Cross be renamed to the The Order of Trinidad & Tobago. The IRO itself supported the move.

It's been an issue every year since then. It was an issue since the 1970s when it was first rejected by a Muslim and Eric Williams himself acknowledged that something had to be done about it.

So all that talk about how it wasn't a problem between 1996 and 2001 is trash. Kinda like the rest of yuh rant. But as I said, yuh new here. Yuh don't know me. So yuh will get a excuse for now.                    

[Kayode]

In this particular scenario...I think we can safely say that history provides us with the trinity cross

Dread...you read my posts?

History has provided us with a multitude of symbols that can represent our identity and excellence. The Cross is not a good example.                    

[TriniXaeno]

no no no, I MEAN that history has provided us with the Trinity Cross.

Who ever was in power at the time came up with this award and here we are today. Strictly historically.                    

[Kayode]

Okay...hard luck.                    

[Anonymous]

Lol  ....peace brethren....nice thread......

I hear yuh Kayo...  

Baego put it in a nice nutshell.......Kinda like what i was trying to say....If the Cross got to go, GOPIO is a step in the wrong direction.   Wow...so clear and concise....Hmmmm....smooth man, smooth.....                    

[Rommel]

the cross and reference to the trinity come from the origins of the name of our country
the cross shouldn't go

but something should be placed above it more because the traditional reference to the name of the award and the origin of our country has no reference to the other island of our twin island state

now what baego said is true and correct
what we got was the trinity cross
because this nation was originally christian
now I am not saying that christianity should have a revered place
but to say that the trinity cross is dividing the country is petty and ignorant and it is thinking like that, and rash comments for change that cause the real division

yes there should be changes made due to the fact that now there are non-christians of a significant number, and that their contribution to our society should be recognised in many aspects

however when separation of church and state starts to become suggested the result is an unfortuneate use of all religion in the political arena, more so than seen here now

when this comes to pass I hope our government and society will not become like France, Canada and the US in this regard

in summary,
keep the cross, it is tradition
put something above it
something that includes
but not something that cannot be identified on a personal lvl by everyone
for that is what neutral tend to be

however I will close this
if this is what is called a pressing issue, with the crime and corruption in this country
with other, real causes of division
then I cannot helped but be disapointed

people are being killed out of greed everyday and we talk about awards                    

[Rampage]

The Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha (Trinidad & Tobago), the only legitimate national Hindu voice has once again brought objections to the nation’s highest award — the Trinity Cross. The government this month invited national awards nominations. The Secretary General of the SDMS, Shri Satnarayan Maharaj, in response has called on members of the public to refuse to submit nominations for the national awards. The SDMS has been making this call to change the nation’s highest award for years across a series of successive political administrations clearly indicating that the objection against the Trinity Cross cuts across all political lines.

The substantial issue remains that the nation has to be equitable and that no citizen or groups within our society made to feel like second-class citizens. The Trinity Cross disregards all non-Christians and Tobagonians annually. In particular no Hindu will ever accept the Trinity Cross. Of course there is the likelihood a Hindu collaborator who will perhaps accept a cross for a “cap, a gown, and a mess of pottage”.

SWAHA’s PNM Senator Manideo Persad only a few months ago lamented in the Senate that the Trinity Cross should be changed. Ironically Senator Persad spoke as an Opposition Senator forgetting that he belonged to the ruling party and was indeed in a position to make the change. Or was it that SWAHA’s Senator Persad, like most Indians and Hindus in the PNM, have no real power do anything of real substance and are merely window dressing? Despite the earlier lamentations, SWAHA’s PNM Senator, Persad, in responding to the call to boycott the Trinity Cross nominations by the SDMS stated: “We can’t expect change overnight because there are so many other pressing matters” and called for “less confrontation and more dialogue”.

Dr Wahid Ali — a Muslim — refused to accept the Trinity Cross in the 1970s and only accepted it when then Prime Minister Eric Williams promised to change the Cross in the future. Williams, once having stated that Indians were a “hostile and recalcitrant minority”, it was no surprise the promised change never came. In 1995 the Dharmacharya of Trinidad & Tobago, Pundit Krishna Maharaj, refused to accept the Trinity Cross from the Manning administration.

In 1997 an independent and impartial National Awards Committee, chaired by Trinidad & Tobago’s Chief Justice Micheal de la Bastide, recommended that the Trinity Cross be renamed to the more inclusive title of The Order of Trinidad & Tobago. The Committee’s report noted that “the Trinity Cross...was perceived as a Christian symbol” in this multi-religious society. The recommendations of the Committee renewed the faith of the Maha Sabha that there are some individuals in society that are not blinded by sectarian interests. SWAHA’s PNM Senator Pundit Persad obviously is ignorant of the fact that this “overnight” objection has been on the national agenda for over two decades. How much more “patience” and “dialogue” must the Hindu community endure before an effective change is made? Last year during the throes of the historic 18-18 hung parliament, the Prime Minister Patrick Manning boldly gave an undertaking to seriously look at the issue of changing the name of the Trinity Cross to a more acceptable national award. Now without a hung parliament to force an appeal to the Hindu and Muslim voters, the elected Prime Minister Patrick Manning stated “it is very unlikely that will happen this year, very unlikely”.

Prime Minister Manning also noted that “it was very interesting that Mr Panday, who was very vocal against the Trinity Cross, in his six years as Prime Minister, never touched it. One of the things I would like to do before touching it myself is to find out why. ..We will adjust it yes, but before we do it, let’s look. We do not jump precipitately into these matters. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” One has to wonder if Prime Minister Manning’s actions are being guided by what former Prime Minister Panday did or did not do rather than what is “morally and spiritually” correct. SWAHA’s PNM Senator Persad revealed that the PNM perhaps is not changing the Trinity Cross due to ignorance on how it can be changed. Speaking on behalf of the PNM Administration Pundit Persad stated, “we were not sure of the mechanisms required to effect this change.”

Support for renaming the Trinity Cross comes also from the President of the Inter-Religious Organisation, Brother Noble Khan. Brother Khan stated that “the time was now right to make a name change” and suggested that The Order of Trinidad & Tobago should be the new name. Brother Khan explained that the Cross “has been aligned by many people in the country as a biased symbol, while substantial sections of our population would like something more neutral and acceptable.” The President of the IRO in his comments sees what the Prime Minister and SWAHA’s PNM Senator refused to see. Brother Khan observed that if the award was not changed the “bitterness” among the population would remain.

Of course Brother Khan assumes that persons in government and the ruling party care about the bitterness of Indians and Hindus. It concerns the Prime Minister Manning to “correct the historical imbalances” of those who have not in the past had access to begin their own business and indeed entrepreneurship — the rationale for CEPEP —. Yet the Prime Minister and SWAHA Senator remain unmoved with the concerns of the historical bias against Indians and Hindus. Given the track record of PNM Prime Ministers on the Trinity Cross and on matters concerning Indians and Hindus, it is predictable that the Trinity Cross will continue to be a burden on all non-Christians for decades to come.  

                   

[TriniXaeno]

Anyone knows why this wasn't changed when the UNC were in power?                    

[Kayode]

because this nation was originally christian

This Nation was never Christian.

This Nation was born on August 31, 1962 as an independent cosmopolitian republic.

Christianity was never declared as the official religion of Trinidad and Tobago.

The national Awards were born with the nation and were meant to be representative of the national identity. One buss.



I don't see why it's so difficult for people to see what the Trinity Cross is. The idea behind the Cross is a relic of colonial Christian influence. It follows in the tradition of the crosses that have always been awarded by Britain to British achievers.


As for it being "What history gave us"...so what?

History gave us "Discovery" Day, which we discovered was a farce and replaced with Emancipation Day. Yall act as if we can't change things because they're "history" or "tradition".

The history books will always show that the Trinity Cross existed. We can't change that. We don't want or need to change that. What we want to change now is the symbol and the name, and present something new and all-inclusive to out National achievers.                    

[Kayode]

Anyone knows why this wasn't changed when the UNC were in power?

One of three things.

 - They was too busy rapin de treasury.

 - A "Hindu Administration" changing a Christian Icon would have been political suicide and would have turned every Christian in the country against them (even more).

 - The PNM has claimed ignorance of the procedure needed to change the award...it apparently needs acts and amendments. They were probably in the same bind.


I tend to think it's the second.

And strangely enough, I think that's the same reason the PNM is afraid to touch it. They might shake the faith that their Afro-Christian core has in them.


That's the root of the whole thing. No one can look at the issue objectively and say that the Cross must stay. Everyone who supports the Cross staying is one of  two things.

 - In a anti-GOPIO political rage.

 - A Christian who's making up all kinda ridiculous excuses about "history" or "tradition" when in reality all they're doing is trying to maintain the dominance and sanctity of their Lord Jesus Christ, which is what they've been programmed to do since birth.                    

[Computerman]

The West Indies Cricket team represents the region and is comprised of the best the WI has to offer.

Ha ha...that's a good one!  Oh, wait...you were being serious?  My bad!

I will support a change in the name but the current name and symbol concern me not!
A rose by any other name...                    

[nytemare]

The USA throwing the Bible out of their Law Books is a sign of progress. The Bible was a lawbook for a different time with different circumstances. It's inspirational, but as a book on keeping a diverse, free society, it's a goddamn joke. Same is to be said for the Gita and the Koran.
quote]

blah blah blah, you seem to have alot to say perhaps you should be a politician, but isnt this specific line in bold, a little disrespectful? see you make a good point about things being secular, but you crossed the line by insulting people's religions. not a good way to get your point across my friend, but i agree with that you say in general                    

[TriniXaeno]

all good answers and perfectly explain why changing the historical cross in this particular aspect is going to be VERY difficult. Even if Hindu's are in power.

Political suicide on both sides of the fence.

That being the case, is best it be left alone indeed.

At least, until we can get a secular government, elected by a secular majority.                    

[silk]

I agree with you here Baego.  Even if the administration of 1995 - 2001 couldn't change it, why wasn't they as actively lobbied, as the present government is being ??
That's my point.  At least we could have seen a serious effort on the persons who comprise GOPIO and assumed they serious.  But they NEVER extensively lobbied the government of that day and now want to agitate the present administration ??
BS !!!!!