Family members of an Army reservist photographed with naked Iraqi prisoners said Tuesday she was merely a \"paper-pusher\" who was in the \"wrong place at the wrong time.\"Pictures of Spc. Lynndie England, 21, and other soldiers have sparked an international outcry over the U.S. military's handling of Iraqi war prisoners.In one photo, England is shown making a thumbs-up gesture behind a pyramid of naked Iraqi men; in another, cigarette dangling from her lips, she points to a hooded and naked prisoner.\"It's ridiculous,\" said Destiny Goin, 21, who has lived with England's extended family since high school and considers herself England's sister.\"It's her picture that you see more than anyone else's, and she really wasn't involved. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.\"Unlike six other members of the 372nd Military Police Company based in Cumberland, Md., England has not been charged but she is being detained at Fort Bragg, N.C.Goin said England has been restricted to base and has not been given access to legal counsel.A spokeswoman at Fort Bragg referred calls to an Army spokesman in Virginia, who did not immediately return phone calls.Goin said England and the six soldiers who have been charged are \"scapegoats -- that's what they're being used for.\"England was trained to be a \"paper pusher\" who helped process prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, said Goin and England's brother-in-law James Klinestiver. She was in the area where the photos were taken to visit friends in the 372nd who served as guards, the two said.Goin and Klinestiver said the family is furious with the comments of President Bush, who said he was \"disgusted\" by the photographs.\"He doesn't know what these guys are going through,\" Klinestiver said. Referring to Bush's limited National Guard service during the Vietnam War, he added, \"How can you make decisions for our military unless you've served yourself?\" It's amazing that they didn't think that when he ordered the War in the first place.An opinion from a next forum I frequent:QuotePrisoner torturing in Iraq is not the result of rogue elements within the armed forces, it is a carefully organised operation, approved by the brass and/or secret services.The fact that the prisoners are naked and that a woman is an active participant hints that the torturers were using a psychologival profile of middle eastern men and knew very well that in their culture the lack of clothing -especially in front of a woman- and the simple fact that it was a woman that was imposing her will on them, would bring the prisoners unimaginable shame.
Prisoner torturing in Iraq is not the result of rogue elements within the armed forces, it is a carefully organised operation, approved by the brass and/or secret services.The fact that the prisoners are naked and that a woman is an active participant hints that the torturers were using a psychologival profile of middle eastern men and knew very well that in their culture the lack of clothing -especially in front of a woman- and the simple fact that it was a woman that was imposing her will on them, would bring the prisoners unimaginable shame.
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": Well, I could just tell you what Gen Antonio Taguba (search) said in his report, which is complicated because he said basically among other things she ran one of the worst brigades he's ever seen. People didn't salute, people dressed casually. Officers were moved around without orders. They didn't keep records. They -- she said that this was not a prison full of hardened, you know, soldiers caught in war. These are full of civilians.He said upwards of 60 percent of the people in the prison had nothing to do with, no bad feelings toward America whatsoever. They simply were caught in a random roadside check or they were snatched off the street.QuoteHERSH: First of all, it's going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I've had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn't want to mention on national television that was done. There was a lot of problems. There was a special women's section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It's much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners.
HERSH: First of all, it's going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I've had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn't want to mention on national television that was done. There was a lot of problems. There was a special women's section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It's much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners.
O'REILLY: OK, but Sanchez the commander put him in charge fairly quickly. They mobilized (investigations) fairly quickly.HERSH: No, look, I don't want to ruin your evening, but the fact of the matter is it was the third investigation. There had been two other investigations.One of them was done by a major general who was involved in Guantanamo, General Miller. And it's very classified, but I can tell you that he was recommending exactly doing the kind of things that happened in that prison, basically. He wanted to cut the lines. He wanted to put the military intelligence in control of the prison.Quote(O'REILLY:) So I'm going to dispute your contention that we had a lot of people in there with just no rap sheets at all, who were just picked up for no reason at all. The people who were in the prison were suspected of being either Al Qaeda or terrorists who were killing Americans and knew something about it. HERSH: The problem is that it isn't my contention. It's the contention of Maj. Gen. Taguba, who was appointed by General Sanchez to do the investigation.It's his contention, in his report, that more than 60 percent of the people in that prison, detainees, civilians, had nothing to do with the war effort. O'REILLY: How did they get there then? Because I...HERSH: Because how do they get into the prison?I'll tell you how they get there. You bust the guy that doesn't have anything to do. You humiliate him. You break him down. You interrogate him. He gives up the name of you want to know who is an insurgent, who is Al Qaeda? He gives up any name he knows. Isn't this the EXACT same thing Saddam was accused of doing?Now the "liberated" Iraqis are becoming victims?
(O'REILLY:) So I'm going to dispute your contention that we had a lot of people in there with just no rap sheets at all, who were just picked up for no reason at all. The people who were in the prison were suspected of being either Al Qaeda or terrorists who were killing Americans and knew something about it. HERSH: The problem is that it isn't my contention. It's the contention of Maj. Gen. Taguba, who was appointed by General Sanchez to do the investigation.It's his contention, in his report, that more than 60 percent of the people in that prison, detainees, civilians, had nothing to do with the war effort. O'REILLY: How did they get there then? Because I...HERSH: Because how do they get into the prison?I'll tell you how they get there. You bust the guy that doesn't have anything to do. You humiliate him. You break him down. You interrogate him. He gives up the name of you want to know who is an insurgent, who is Al Qaeda? He gives up any name he knows. Isn't this the EXACT same thing Saddam was accused of doing?Now the "liberated" Iraqis are becoming victims?
Honestly Kayode,I dont think that this is a relavant topic even for the Bar.
QuoteHonestly Kayode,I dont think that this is a relavant topic even for the Bar.As defined by who and what?What is relevant to the GATT Forum Bar, and what isn't?
what was this war about again?
At least when Americans do this people get to see it, if this were a country like Iraq under Saddam, Libya, Zimbabwe, Cuba and the prisoners anyone from a free democracy these \"soldiers\" might have been applauded and even rewarded by their governments. Here these American \"soldiers\" will be court-martialed, probably imprisoned, generals reprimanded, and maybe even Rumsfeld fired.I wonder what kind of treatment Trini prisoners get?
