Gaming - Buyers, Sellers and Hackers

[D2ultima]

It is one thing to say that a game did not sell well....it is another to say it did not sell well but their are 100 million people out there with a pirated copy.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm sure most of the 100 million pirated copies were downloaded only because it was free. I bet most of them still wouldn't have bought it if a cracked version wasn't available. I believe that this 100 million is in no way a potential sales figure, 10 million is still far-fetched imo.

It's more along the lines of 1-2 mil total sales in general (so 800k on Xbox, 600k on PS3, 300k on PC) we can say? The numbers are a lot closer than you'd think, even if it's as low as 200k for the PC. ALSO, I'd like to point out, the consoles MUST use a disc for their copy. The revenue from 500,000 console sales is less than 500,000 for PC sales, as a large number of those PC sales will be digitally distributed, and not require discs, manuals, packaging, shipping to stores, what have you. Which does cost a lot.

And as I've been saying multiple times, cracked versions of the game (especially in recent years) do NOT allow online play. If somebody cracks a game and he wants multiplayer badly, he's going to buy it. I've pirated Street Fighter 4, Grand Theft Auto 4 and Left 4 Dead 1 in 2009, and I bought ALL of them because I enjoyed single player and wanted multiplayer. Then I pre-ordered Left 4 Dead 2 because I loved part 1 so much. But it still counts toward those 100 million pirated copies, right? Because it's what I did. People don't often care that you buy the game after. But like Awesome said: I have no demo, I have no way to try it out, and you asking 50 & 60 US for the game. That's no joking matter. I tested it, loved it, and then I supported the developers WHILE getting full access to the game myself. And I don't regret buying any of them.

The arguement can be twisted to whoever sees it fit to twist it. Simply leave out one set of information, or ignore another, and it looks very convincing. Most people I know now that crack a game will buy it if they love it.

Oh, and before men watch meh saying "it's still wrong to pirate", console users get to walk into blockbusters or call up gamefly, and try out the game for a few days, then if they like it, they can go buy it. Same difference, and with gamefly, you can argue that they're spending money on the service, but gamefly says "If you like the game, you can buy it at a DISCOUNTED PRICE". So it comes like they trying it out for free too, no?

[Czar]

ALSO, I'd like to point out, the consoles MUST use a disc for their copy.

Untrue:

Microsoft Announces Xbox 360 Game Digital Distribution, Launches August
 by Nick Breckon, Jun 01, 2009 12:43pm PDT

Microsoft today announced that Xbox 360 titles will soon be available to purchase and download.

"We're launching full retail games on demand [this year]," said Microsoft general manager Mark Whitten. "We'll be launching this in August with a portfolio of about 30 titles. We'll be launching new titles every week."

Mass Effect, BioShock, Assassin's Creed, Oblivion and Call of Duty 2, Civilization Revolution, DiRT and Rainbow Six 2 are all titles that were confirmed for a digital release by way of a demonstration of the on-demand interface. The interface resembles the Xbox Originals store.

"You'll see these priced just like retail," said Whitten, who did not clarify whether there are plans for new releases to launch on the service alongside disc-based versions.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/58908/microsoft-announces-xbox-360-game

Right now the lion's share of new releases are disc-based only, but there are a growing number of titles that are also being distributed digitally via the Marketplace on Live (again, I cannot speak to the other consoles).

[TriniXaeno]

It is one thing to say that a game did not sell well....it is another to say it did not sell well but their are 100 million people out there with a pirated copy.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm sure most of the 100 million pirated copies were downloaded only because it was free. I bet most of them still wouldn't have bought it if a cracked version wasn't available. I believe that this 100 million is in no way a potential sales figure, 10 million is still far-fetched imo.

You are missing the point completely Shiv.

It does not matter how many of those "pirated copies" on the PC platform would have been sales.

What does matter is that the developers are getting EXPONENTIALLY more sales on the console platform.

Same goes for you d2ultima, all of your arguments are avoiding that FACT.

Your suppositions are nothing against the very real and tangible sales figures.

lol @ valve as a case study for PC done right. You obviously didn't read this thread. Valve is legendary for their anti-piracy, DRM tool....you might know it as STEAM.

No one has done more to stamp out PC piracy than Valve.

In fact, they are the best hope for fighting piracy on the platform (outside WoW) since they've made DRM palatable after forcing it down gamers throats for years. Even old school, die hard buccaneers start to like the taste.

[D2ultima]

Have you seen these titles like those available on XBL to download? Also I've not seen many really new titles there, everyone's still hyped about pre-ordering and all that. And putting a game on your hard drive still had you need the disc inside the slot.

I know they have fully downloadable games off XBL Arcade, but those are VERY old and most devs don't care too much about em I'd say; definitely not like the new games they put out.

Anyway, if they DO have those games downloadable I'll have to adjust my statement, but I've yet to hear of any big-name games having such wonders as digitally downloadable on Xbox/PS3. Even if they aren't that recent. If you can't find proof (or don't even have an Xbox to check) then I just have to take it as a plan that once was. You know, like Onslaught mode for PC version of BF:BC2?

[D2ultima]

It is one thing to say that a game did not sell well....it is another to say it did not sell well but their are 100 million people out there with a pirated copy.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm sure most of the 100 million pirated copies were downloaded only because it was free. I bet most of them still wouldn't have bought it if a cracked version wasn't available. I believe that this 100 million is in no way a potential sales figure, 10 million is still far-fetched imo.

You are missing the point completely Shiv.

It does not matter how many of those "pirated copies" on the PC platform would have been sales.

What does matter is that the developers are getting EXPONENTIALLY more sales on the console platform.

Same goes for you d2ultima, all of your arguments are avoiding that FACT.

Your suppositions are nothing against the very real and tangible sales figures.

lol @ valve as a case study for PC done right. You obviously didn't read this thread. Valve is legendary for their anti-piracy, DRM tool....you might know it as STEAM.

No one has done more to stamp out PC piracy than Valve.

In fact, they are the best hope for fighting piracy on the platform (outside WoW) since they've made DRM palatable after forcing it down gamers throats for years. Even old school, die hard buccaneers start to like the taste.

A LARGE part of my counter-arguement against you claiming piracy is the source of PC's downfall is that you CANNOT CRACK GAMES FOR ONLINE ANYMORE. You know, using DRM such as Valve? How people that want to crack things like Black Ops end up buying the game because they can't play online? Because valve, you know, actually seems to CARE about the PC gamers? Like how PC gamers got L4D2 DLC for free whereas Xbox users had to pay MS points for it? Dude, my point is that NOBODY knows the real sales figures for PC games, because (as was stated earlier in this thread), valve and other digitally distributing companies don't release their sales figures. And as I did point out earlier, it's CHEAPER to release on a PC. I once heard it costs around $52 USD for a $60 USD game to be published on a console. And that it costs approximately $20 USD for the same to be done for the PC, simply due to the large number of digital copies. I'd say if the Xbox got 800,000 sales, the PS3 got 600,000 and the PC got 200,000 for a game that sold 1.8 million copies, and the Xbox/PS3 made $8 profit per disc and the PC made $40 profit per sale, it'd take 5 Xbox/PS3 discs to combat 1 PC copy. So it ends up being, that in terms of how much PROFIT they make, the PC counts for 1,000,000 sales on an Xbox 360/PS3.

Sales figures and all lie. If a company would ACTUALLY release the specific amount of profit they get from EACH platform, I'm sure the numbers would be far more upsetting to this arguement. But fact is, it isn't happening, they still make games for the PC because they know people are going to buy it, and they know they'll make PROFIT. Substantial profit to warrant WORKING on a PC port of the title.

Our point is that they should put more WORK into the PC side of things, instead of thinking the PC users will be happy with a simple copy & paste.

I'll even point you to an article about 2k games. They officially stated that they would not be releasing two sets of DLC for a certain game (I think it was bioshock). One of the DLC was called Minerva's Den. After saying that due to technical issues they would not release it, the PC community begged them to reconsider, and they stated, officially, that it "would have taken so much work to do it, because it couldn't be a simple copy/paste affair, and when they halted development on it, it was not in a working state and would have needed so much extra effort to bring it over properly", then they went on to say that since we wanted it so much, they would resume work on it and attempt to get it out for us, but it wouldn't be soon. That's developer confirmation that doing it right is often almost too much work in their eyes. But guess what? Do it right and you get a reputation beyond repute, and then you'll be so so successful on the PC platform. Why do you think I bought Fallout 3? It's single player only. It's the ONLY single player game I specifically bought stand-alone (not part of a bundle on steam for example). It was just THAT GOOD. They let us mod it. They let us do what we wanted with it. Good times. I lost four months to that single player game. SP only. I re-did it so many times. I have multiple saves at epic moments in the game. The game crashed my video card for being so demanding almost every day, and I didn't even care. It was bliss. THAT, my friend, gets the money in. Because when I tell ya'll that, ya'll probably gonna try it yourself. And if you like it you might buy it too. And they even bundled up all 5 expansions (and I mean EXPANSIONS) into the game, called it Game Of The Year edition, and started selling for $50 USD again. And it's a good deal. And just on my word of mouth, a good few of my steam pals bought it. And they don't regret it either.

Do it right on PC, you get epic rewards.
Do it halfheartedly, your sales stop a couple weeks after you launch.

[Redlum08]

So let me pull out meh hoss Bad Company 2 on the pc.

All I have to say is this...

With all the piracy on the pc, look at them numbers to the side. There are ALWAYS more ppl playing on the pc than any other platform.

This is living proof that if developers even take half an effort to deliver a polished experience on the pc, it can do as well as and even BETTER than other platforms.

I rest my case.

Lemme help you with that. Yuh cannot crack CS: Source. Yuh cannot crack Team Fortress 2. They have no single player; it'd be pointless. Those are games that men does KILL. Every day, the peak bunning numbers at the same time for those games does be like 70,000+ for Counter Strike AND Counter Strike Source (I.E. 140,000+ total), 50,000+ for TF2, etc etc. Valve cares about its PC players. People love Valve's games. They love it so much that their users BEGGED Valve for the Mann Co. store for TF2, for hats and other such worthlessness that they could buy and have fun with. For no reason. They ASKED for useless DLC. And other companies pushing out DLC that people groaning to buy.

But doing the PC its proper dues has no merit? It don't look so to me.

As opposed to 500,000 - 1,000,000 people playing Bops on Xbox Live every night? And 250,000+ people on Crysis 2 everyday with more joining everyday?

[D2ultima]

So let me pull out meh hoss Bad Company 2 on the pc.

All I have to say is this...

With all the piracy on the pc, look at them numbers to the side. There are ALWAYS more ppl playing on the pc than any other platform.

This is living proof that if developers even take half an effort to deliver a polished experience on the pc, it can do as well as and even BETTER than other platforms.

I rest my case.

Lemme help you with that. Yuh cannot crack CS: Source. Yuh cannot crack Team Fortress 2. They have no single player; it'd be pointless. Those are games that men does KILL. Every day, the peak bunning numbers at the same time for those games does be like 70,000+ for Counter Strike AND Counter Strike Source (I.E. 140,000+ total), 50,000+ for TF2, etc etc. Valve cares about its PC players. People love Valve's games. They love it so much that their users BEGGED Valve for the Mann Co. store for TF2, for hats and other such worthlessness that they could buy and have fun with. For no reason. They ASKED for useless DLC. And other companies pushing out DLC that people groaning to buy.

But doing the PC its proper dues has no merit? It don't look so to me.

As opposed to 500,000 - 1,000,000 people playing Bops on Xbox Live every night? And 250,000+ people on Crysis 2 everyday with more joining everyday?

CS: Source = 2005 game. TF2 = 2006 (or maybe it was 2007) game. Go see how many people playing CoD 4 on Xbox or PS3 nah. Those are lasting games. Black Ops burn the PC so bad what could you expect? The first day it was 200,000 people at once and thing. My point was the lasting games that people keep playing, and keep BUYING even though they're old like the hills.

[shivanandrs]

You are missing the point completely Shiv.

It does not matter how many of those "pirated copies" on the PC platform would have been sales.

What does matter is that the developers are getting EXPONENTIALLY more sales on the console platform.

Ahh, my posts were in response to this:

...but it looks like a few of us are still oblivious to this reality. Piracy is the white elephant that trampled all over PC gaming.

I was simply expressing my views on PC piracy, not comparing PC to console game sales.

[TriniXaeno]

shiv, it is precisely your view on piracy (shared by many in the past) that has caused PC games to become an "also ran" in the race for sales. That has turned developers to focus on consoles as opposed to the PC.

The two are historically inseparable.

So whereas you might think it a casual statement to make, it is alarming to me, simply because that is precisely what got us to this point. I thought after all the spirited discussions on this forum...gamers would have realized the glaring short comings of such an approach to our industry.

ultima, the cow is already out of the barn.

Your entire argument is so very flawed (and I really hate to word it that way...but it really is flawed). Valve is an anti-hero. They are a champion in the war against piracy and have profited immensely.

I love Steam and love Valve but do not forget what steam really is....DRM (aka anti piracy tool)

Note, when you buy a console game....for US$60.00, you can easily resell that months after to recoup some cost and buy another game.

When you buy a game from steam, for US$49.95, you cannot resell it. Ever. 0 resale value.

But back to what makes your position so flawed.....you do realize that once you are trying to justify that a developer should spend time on a PC port that you have already lost?

Imagine....Crytek....a legendary PC developer....is being challenged by you to make their now "console" game, Crysis 2, polished for the PC experience.

Do you realize how defeated the PC platform must be at this stage if that is your argument?

It has already lost the war. (Thanks to 100 million people who thought like Shiv over the last 10 years or so)

And one more thing...while the sales information for digital is not released to you (john public) it is very much released to the developers. They know exactly how much revenue they are receiving from digital sales on the PC platform and weigh that against the console sales. (Crysis and Crysis Warhead are both available on STEAM fyi)

Obviously the figures aren't impressive enough (as we suspected in our earlier math exercise) and hence they are still focusing on consoles.

Now don't think I am against the PC platform for a second...I would love nothing better for digital sales to increase exponentially.....(note sales....not piracy) and see this entire situation turned on its head. Bringing PC back into the fore runnings and let the console guys wait for a port. just like the old days. lol

As mentioned a million times on this forum....steam is our best chance for that happening. (Though there are some serious concerns with this, think monopoly....but that's a discussion for another thread)

Give them a few years though. I doubt it will take place over night.


 

[shivanandrs]

shiv, it is precisely your view on piracy (shared by many in the past) that has caused PC games to become an "also ran" in the race for sales. That has turned developers to focus on consoles as opposed to the PC.

lol! So lets just assume for the sake of this discussion that all those cracking/hacking groups didn't exist, PC piracy didn't exist. You keep bringing up this 100 million figure as if these were people who would have purchased the game if there was no other way to get it. 100 Million sales!? I say bullshit. At best, 2% maybe would have bought it, 3% would have returned it when they realize their system couldn't run the game, the other 95% wouldn't exist.

I don't condone piracy in any way. I honestly wish there was a way to put an end to all those cracking/hacking groups, but that ain't look like its gonna happen.

...So whereas you might think it a casual statement to make, it is alarming to me, simply because that is precisely what got us to this point.

LOL! Are you for real? I buy my games. I bought Crysis 1 (pre-ordered actually), and my kinda thinking is what got us to this point?? You seem a bit confused as to why PC gaming got to where it is today. Piracy is just an excuse, an excuse for lazy devs and greedy publishers. They can't possibly be thinking of counting piracy figures as lost sales, sales they never would have earned in the first place. These pirates are just the average Joe who downloaded because it was accessible without ever the intention of purchasing.

Besides, the invention of the console made it easier for developers to produce software, without all the compatibility issues that might arise when developing for the PC. It is also cheaper for the average user to own and maintain a console than a gaming PC. That is the only reason why there is a lot more console sales than PC.

It has already lost the war. (Thanks to 100 million people who thought like Shiv over the last 10 years or so)

Of course.

[MessiaaH]

Ok, after having read all d comments in this thread by all mentions, and ultima/shiv Here is my 2 cents.

All points have merits. But in d end i have to find myself agreeing with ulti/shiv here.
PC piracy HASSSS hurt the pc industry no denying that, but it not singlehandedly responsible for pc's ports.

Shiv hit d nail on d head, there are simply more consoles in households than gaming pcs, and dat is d MAIN reason console sales are higher. So is not that console sales increase at d expensive of pc sales, cuase most of d ppl out there running console mustbe eh even know what ah gaming pc is. Is a new resource game devs tap into, nintendo is case in point, i have sisters never play ah pc game in dey life, but dey liking deyself on d wii. Consoles reach a wider demographic alltoghter, so is a no brainer sales will always, i repeat, always be higher dan pc.

That being said, there is no deny, 1 or 2 developers shaft pc, but pc gaming is not remotely in d state that alot paint it out to be. Im primarily a pc gamer. Juss last week, when i see MK with Kratos, and God Of War 3, i spec ah console on amazon, PS3+MK+GodOfWar3+Uncharted2+MoveBundle+HDMICable+Optical cable. D Entire package come upt o like 600+$ and i was studying hard to buy it, juss to play d titles i mention there.
But when i line it up, to d titles dat upcoming for pc dis year, i still hesistant to buy a ps3.
Hunted:Demons Forge, Rage, ElderScrollsV:Skyrim, Magicka Vietnam, DarkSpore, Torchlight 2, Brink, Fear 3, Fable 3, Duke Nukem, Dead Island, Batman Arkum City. Plus d titles i still have to play on PC, it juss not making sense to get ah ps3.

Nobody could show me a console game dat looks better dan d PC counterpath.
And i in it for looks. And with so many, STRONG titles coming out for pc. I have to use wyatt own point against him, Yes d Devs seeing d sales figured from Digital Media, is why dey found it nesasry to make sure and release a pc version of all them games i call. All of which will pwon d console counterpath. Triach and BO team need licks with ah bull pessle, it dont mean all Devs treatin PC so. Steam themselfs say that d last 2 years have been d most profitable they ever had. PC gaming is here to stay. Even d half ass console port of crysis 2 still better on d pc, dat alone says alot lol.

Also, some men dont care bout resale(me), i much rather be able to press play and go, dan go in ah cd case to find ah disk to insert into my console, whiles worrying about it getin scratch, or my son playing frisby with it (IT HAS HAPPENED!), if my pc blow up tomorow, i could install steam on any new pc, click download and talk done. Yuh Xbox/PS3 game get scratch, kiss 60$ bye bye. So there are very strong advantageous either way.

Also d points about trini-trialing a game and buying it with cdkey after d fact is very valid, becuase i do it all d time. And i've bought more games in d past 2 years dan i've ever bought in my life. Thanks to Steam, and d convience in which it does everything. Makes consoles and discs feel so 1980, and console still trying to play cetchup in dat department.

In any event, whiles man aruging about pc gaming dead, ill be enjoying all my favored titles on pc juss d same Things arent as bad as ppl are lead to believe, steam profits booming, and only going to get better. Castrate Triach and Cryteck if u willl, and lets move on.

[TriniXaeno]

Good post there messiaah, no...great post.

As a side note, I don't think anyone is arguing that PC is dead. We fleshed that out before and came to the conclusion that it is very much alive.

Shiv, you keep focusing on the 100 million pirates not equalling to "real" sales. That is where you're losing steam (pun intended).

You can only hazard a guess. In reality, we will never know. The developers cannot live on guesses. They need real sales...and the console is giving them that (for all the many reasons Messiaah and yourself listed)

The PC community could have done so...but didn't. Fact, not fiction.

No one is denying that the PC is superior in many ways, that steam is superior in many ways. I totally agree and personally spend more time on my PC than all my other consoles combined (and I do own all the others)

Still, just as I acknowlege your arguments....I maintain that the PC had its shot to show some love to developers by spending money on games instead of pirating them. Sales figures is the only "vote" that matters at this stage. It was the only vote that mattered at all. Yet, sales were extremely low and piracy figures were extremely high.

Can you see that perspective?

Also, do not underestimate the negative effect on the developers after seeing their years of hard work pirated 100 million times on the internet.

Their is no justification for that. This is a luxury item. You don't pirate a copy of Crysis 2 because you needed it to stay alive or to feed your family. lol

[MessiaaH]

I trying to support all forms of entertainment dese days, not juss games. Like i said, past 2 years i bought more games dan i ever bought in life, want to know how much games i previously actually bought?
Zelda Orcarina of time for N64, Decent 3 PC, All DOW PC, and Command & Conqueer PC.
Not one ass else lolol. Dies ever! And currently my steam account is bustling with titles lol.

I also want to support music, so ive actualy been buying oringal discs and ripping dem HQ, but it so easy to get HQ digital downloads  (pritate) now it juss more convinet, if Amazon release ah Digital Download service where i could get my music Lossless, talk done ill buy.

Same with movies, if i could find a legitamate digital download source for Bluray movies i go buy. Everybody needs to Steam their content, thats d way of d future.

In any event, it doesnt matter what d sales figures look like, who have more players online, who think pc dead, who vex with Creteck, who doh like d start button, none of dat matters.
D moral of d story is, BUY D PPL DAM GAME!

All who agree say, YAY and AMEN!

[TriniXaeno]

amen to that

[W1nTry]

YAY and Amen. Also just another 2c, at least on XBL, EVEN if men pirating games, it's still a mandatory fee to play multi online, so at least on the 360 they STILL make money, EVEN on pirated software, study dat.

[Czar]

Have you seen these titles like those available on XBL to download? Also I've not seen many really new titles there, everyone's still hyped about pre-ordering and all that. And putting a game on your hard drive still had you need the disc inside the slot.

I know they have fully downloadable games off XBL Arcade, but those are VERY old and most devs don't care too much about em I'd say; definitely not like the new games they put out.

Anyway, if they DO have those games downloadable I'll have to adjust my statement, but I've yet to hear of any big-name games having such wonders as digitally downloadable on Xbox/PS3. Even if they aren't that recent. If you can't find proof (or don't even have an Xbox to check) then I just have to take it as a plan that once was. You know, like Onslaught mode for PC version of BF:BC2?

I just login to my Xbox and check what's available on Games on Demand, here's a quick list of what caught my attention that I could purchase and download now:

Halo: Reach
Battlefield: Bad Company 2
Red Dead Redemption
Crackdown 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
Fallout 3
Alan Wake
Borderlands
Just Cause 2

So while it's not the "latest and greatest", there are lots of fairly current titles available.

And as I did point out earlier, it's CHEAPER to release on a PC. I once heard it costs around $52 USD for a $60 USD game to be published on a console. And that it costs approximately $20 USD for the same to be done for the PC, simply due to the large number of digital copies. I'd say if the Xbox got 800,000 sales, the PS3 got 600,000 and the PC got 200,000 for a game that sold 1.8 million copies, and the Xbox/PS3 made $8 profit per disc and the PC made $40 profit per sale, it'd take 5 Xbox/PS3 discs to combat 1 PC copy. So it ends up being, that in terms of how much PROFIT they make, the PC counts for 1,000,000 sales on an Xbox 360/PS3.

As I'm fond of saying: pics or it never happened - hearsay is no good in court, we require proper evidence. Me eh business if is wiki and all, jes provide some links and I'll be happy to look into these figures that you've produced, because I find those figures rather ludicrous tbh.


Good point dey w1n, hadn't even study dat.

[Berzerk]

just out of pure curiosity...this is a crysis 2 thread right???

[TriniXaeno]

lol, this has to be the most epic thread derailment in the history of GATT.

[Spazosaurus]

No amen here. Not buying no damn lazy ass console port, sorry.

[MessiaaH]

^^ I doh think u get d MORAL of d story lol.
If u dont like a console port is not d point, u doh have to buy what u doh want to buy if u find is shit. But, Dont pirate d ppl game, dat is d moral of d story.
Dont say "i not buying no shitty console port" but yuh wining on d pirate version whole week lolol. Dat is d point! Weather is xbox, ps3, pc, it doh matter, u like it buy it, u dont like it?doh play it.

lol, this has to be the most epic thread derailment in the history of GATT.

INDEED! lololol