Your take on the conflict in Gaza

[Crixx_Creww]

nah mengz
we haz teh lazor beams ( pew pew pew) to stop any uprisings!! (straight from jewtown too!!)

[W1nTry]

you admin. guys are amazing... to have this thread on a forum that is so sensitive to religious and political  topics.

i can't wait till a shouting match starts, lol

Hey there are privileges to being an admin XD

[daniboy79]

^^^duly noted B-)

[W1nTry]

As if I weren't already having a piss poor day... I read THIS

And quoted for it's UNF&*KING BELIEVEBLE AND EPIC AMOUNTS OF BS:

Casualty claims in Gaza cannot be independently verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a supreme court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory.

Thank GOD I am sitting cause I think my Blood Pressure hit either an all time LOW or HIGH... WTMC

[Synchronomyst]

I'm going to really make it simple.

They're -both- wrong.

Summary of 'why?':

1// Zionist elements in Israel, whose mindsets have been warped by a history of jewish persecution and the scattering of their diaspora (the most freshly of which would be the jewish hollocaust in world war 2) are fueling the fires of war and are so determined to win back their homeland that they are a present virtually on the verge of performing ethnic cleansing in an attempt to stop the violence directed towards their people by severely restricting the supply stream to gaza and using fear propaganda to win over/silence the moderate jewish elements.

2// The Palestinian people however...let's just say they are f**king up. They're violated ceasefire after ceasefire and continuous peace agreements some of which have inspired israel to take more drastic approaches on them. The bulls**t is though that the other arabic countries that are so inspired by their plight refused them as refugees after the 1948 conflict and still refuse them today and barely provide them with aid or infrastructure assistance because they simply don't give a **** about them. The palestinian people are just part of the larger pervasive anti jewish sentiment that has populated that region for god knows how long. It doesn't help that Hamas (and the palestinian in general) also strategically uses their people, schools, hospitals as human shields/propaganda forcefields on purpose rathr than having the decency to demarcate military from civilian and what israel is doing is NOTHING that they would not do and worse given that they had the resources.

Currently they're using what people would call "disproportinate force" against the arabs...but when you're country is lead by an organization (Hamas) whose inspiration is (to paraphrase) the complete and utter destruction of Israel... I think we have a problem for successful diplomacy.

"Casualty claims in Gaza cannot be independently verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a supreme court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory."

I don't know why this is so shocking. To Israel, this is a measure in time of war to reduce propaganda and an opportunity for zionist sympathisers to be as relentless as they need to be against both palestinian fighter and civilian. However, to a place like China...it would be just another Thursday.

Anyway...a good analogy for all this would be something like this.

There are two brothers; an older and a younger brother. They're fighting over a toy they were given to share but their mother (the 'world'/history) hands it to them first. So the older brother's outside playing with it and then a gang of people come and beat him up one by one and weaken him significantly each time he's beaten up. The younger brother sees this and hates the fact that he's older and the fact that the little brother thinks the older brother is the favourite and capitalizes on this and beats the older brother up and wrestles the toy away from him.

The younger brother plays with it for years because he's too weak to fight for it, his pride and spirit is shattered and he turns his back and for the most part doesn't want it but, at his very heart(zionists in case you've missed it), wants the toy back badly. So he goes off to get over his pain and embarrassment and continues to get picked on for being a mama's boy; not really being accepted by anyone. That is, however...that's until a crazy bully with a funny moustache in he new part of the neighborhood where he plays now sees him and sees how weak he is tortures him and gets his entire gang to beat him up so savagely that he screams so loudly that virtually the whole world hears him.

His mom and relatives comes, saves him and a couple of his friends from the gang. His mom sees the type of torture he's gone through and they return home to the little brother and she grants him the toy because she can see that as the only solace he deserves because of all the pain and persecution he's gone through. So now the older brother's home and healing swiftly because his heart is overjoyed; he has his toy back. The little brother is furious and wastes no time getting back what he thinks is rightfully his and is willing to fight for it. The older brother believes that it's his in his heart The older brother isn't having any of it...he's tired of being attacked and will NOT take it at 'home' of all places and cracks the younger brother a knee to the 'nads. Fight over.

The older brother over the coming period trains hard to get stronger and is getting assistance from a guy who has a reaaaaaaaally warped sense of justice and some control issues but nonetheless...the have a good relationship and gives him pointers on how to deal with his little brother. Ever so often the little brother acts up and gets a couple hits in but the older brother outs him with one blow. So, the little brother starts passive aggressively breaking his older brother's stuff. The older brother knocks him down again. The younger gets up with rage in his eyes and runs into the older brother but he outstretches his hand and holds him at arms length. A couple hits get in my not much.

Eventually...the older brother gets really f**king tired and goes aggro on him and puts him in a submission lock and tightens it anytime he even thinks about hitting him back. The mother, who was too busy gossiping on the phone and doing her nails finally gives in to all the racket and checks up on what's going on and it's f**king awful and the most she can say is "You're older! You should know better!" when she doesn't have all the facts at all. Just the bits of what she could hear coming out of the room when she was busy doing her own thing.

[W1nTry]

Hmm interesting story... though it still sounds quite older brother sympathetic... I think some more could be added like... The mother not THINKING to get another perhaps LESS populated TOY from her MANY gave the older brother back the old used toy that HAPPENED to be ohhh used by the younger brother. Or how about the fact that this 'older brother' has SIGINIFICANT investments in the mother's portfolio and perhaps mother being swayed by the older brother indeed shows him favouritism. Or perhaps mother has her OWN AGENDA in her son's neighbourhood and that's why she decided to give him the same old toy instead of something more suitable.

Oh another thing... THIS really pissed me off...

"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unwra spokesman Chris Gunness.

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army."

The UN said the movements of the truck hit at the Erez crossing had been co-ordinated and cleared with the Israeli military.

The Israeli army has not commented on that claim but has said it is looking into the matter.

[Synchronomyst]

"The mother not THINKING to get another perhaps LESS populated TOY from her MANY gave the older brother back the old used toy that HAPPENED to be ohhh used by the younger brother."

Palestine wasn't very populated. At all. A lot of Israels current resource and splendour was wasteland that the Jews converted into when they moved there. Hell, the heart of this fighting is over control of jerusalem far more than it is just about -land-. Jews were hated and persecuted all over and just suffered a crushing attack on their people the likes of which the world has NEVER seen. And in their hearts the only thing the would want is a place where they would not be persecuted; a place to call home...their place of origin in the very CRADLE of western civilization? Why would the world powers-that-be think of moving them to a less populated place, wintry? Seriously?

"Or how about the fact that this 'older brother' has SIGINIFICANT investments in the mother's portfolio and perhaps mother being swayed by the older brother indeed shows him favouritism"

In this analogy the US is the that overly excited jock that's training them and selling them weaponry. Not the mother which is the world, history and general world perspective. Also...there's the entire jewish banker conspiracy which really doesn't have much creedence in the discussion since the US at those times wasn't terribly commited to the establishmen of Israel. We're talking pre-establishment and independence here. Sure you can accuse the US of doing that currently but as I always say and always prove...there is NO Benevolent state in this world, so a move like that is not surprising. Those who have the power wield it to their own benefit. They always have and always will. Whatever Israel does is really under the auspices of the US and not because of direct influence because they get along. What keeps the US (as people) supporting israel is the fundementalist christian doctrine of "loving gods people" and the obvious favourable history christianity and judaism share.

Let's make it clear. The US didn't foster the set up of Israel. The British did i.e. The British Mandate of Palestine and a part of the greater league of nations mandate. So there was no imperialist agenda in the setting up on israel on lands that were, undebatably, historically where they dwelled before others.

[Exar_Kun]

Jews were hated and persecuted all over and just suffered a crushing attack on their people the likes of which the world has NEVER seen.

Now hold on a minute brah.
The Holocaust was a despicable act but let's not fall into the Jewish propaganda here. I'm sure we saw worse when the US committed genocide against the native americans. And if you want to talk raw numbers the Japanese murdered many more Chinese than the Germans did Jews. It's just that the Jews will bring that up as a shield every time whereas the Chinese do not.

Just want to inject some historical accuracy into this.

[Crixx_Creww]

and the americans did a pretty nasty number firebombing the japanese civilians
dont forget rawanda, never forget rawanda and the congo now and all the slaves killed and traded.

so it was bad indeed, and nothing can ever make the nazis look good. but ... certain people looking like they have become the thing they hate.

[Synchronomyst]

"I'm sure we saw worse when the US committed genocide against the native americans."

Reasonable estimates put the native american deaths/genocide/reduction in populace at 2 million to tens of millions (some at a hundred million but that's bulls***t because those figure don't take into account migration and miscegenation and -disease-) over a couple centuries.

Estimates put the holocaust at 6 million over 4 years. That's sort of dissimilar.

And well I don't know about the Japanese figures but they were a**holes so I wouldn't be too surprised if it was more in such a short space of time.

"and the americans did a pretty nasty number firebombing the japanese civilians"

Hundreds of thousands in weeks but this is at war time and it wasn't a genocide attempt. Mass deaths aren't inherently equal to genocide.

Look guys I understand the perspective but there really just hasn't been a systematic, institutionalized genocide like the holocaust.

[W1nTry]

Let's make it clear. The US didn't foster the set up of Israel. The British did i.e. The British Mandate of Palestine and a part of the greater league of nations mandate. So there was no imperialist agenda in the setting up on israel on lands that were, undebatably, historically where they dwelled before others.

Who did you think I was reffering to as the mother? when did the US own MANY other parts of the world to give away?

And well I don't know about the Japanese figures but they were a**holes so I wouldn't be too surprised if it was more in such a short space of time.

Hmm exactly what is/was the historical reasoning or otherwise behind this? Of the little I know of WWII and the Japanese participation in it, they were invading China (doing a pretty goog job of it) and the US basically sanctioned and forced them into attacking them... then the US dropped 2 bombs on 2 CITIES (civilians BE DAMNED) and ended the war in a fell swoop. Which part of this made them @$$holes exactly? Other than some sad analogy to 'ripping them a new one' with the 2 large holes in the ground formally known as Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Oh 1 more thing, the latest stat based on reports from BBC is 700:14 Palestinian dead to Israeli.....

[Synchronomyst]

Well now I'm just a bit confused?

Many other parts like -where- given this circumstances surrounding this all?

I'm not saying setting up the state was a wise move but it sure is an understandable move given the situation.

[W1nTry]

Well now I'm just a bit confused?

Many other parts like -where- given this circumstances surrounding this all?

I'm not saying setting up the state was a wise move but it sure is an understandable move given the situation.

Not that I like to quote them (there are some discrepancies in their data sometimes) but it is a pretty easy place to find aggregated data when you need it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire_in_World_War_II

Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_British_Empire.png

Now fairly so, they lost substantial leverage with its colonies and even EVENTUALLY lost a few (like INDIA 2 years AFTER the war), but the point I am getting at is, are you REALLY so sure they couldn't have found land elsewhere to put these 'refugees' ? I mean I'm sure they kept the Falkland Islands for strategic SHEEP HERDING purposes....

one more thing quoted from the link I provided:

The conflict placed enormous financial strain on Britain, and although the Empire achieved its largest territorial extent immediately after the war

Yeah they had NOWHERE to put these ppl...

[Synchronomyst]

And well I don't know about the Japanese figures but they were a**holes so I wouldn't be too surprised if it was more in such a short space of time.

Hmm exactly what is/was the historical reasoning or otherwise behind this? Of the little I know of WWII and the Japanese participation in it, they were invading China (doing a pretty goog job of it) and the US basically sanctioned and forced them into attacking them... then the US dropped 2 bombs on 2 CITIES (civilians BE DAMNED) and ended the war in a fell swoop. Which part of this made them @$$holes exactly? Other than some sad analogy to 'ripping them a new one' with the 2 large holes in the ground formally known as Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

...and well the japanese have been f**king china and especially korea over like this at regular intervals throughout history.

[Synchronomyst]

one more thing quoted from the link I provided:

The conflict placed enormous financial strain on Britain, and although the Empire achieved its largest territorial extent immediately after the war

Yeah they had NOWHERE to put these ppl...

YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT. WHY WOULD "SYMPATHISERS" PUT THEM ANYWHERE ELSE? WHY!? WHY WOULD THEY POLITICALLY PUT A PEOPLE WHO HISTORICALLY CAME FROM THAT AREA WHO AT THE CENTRE OF THE CULTURE HAD ELEMENTS WITH ZIONIST ASPIRATIONS ANYWHERE ELSE? THE JEWISH PEOPLE WANTED TO GO BACK AS IT IS A PART OF THEIR CULTURE AND RELIGION. THE POWER THAT BE LET EMOTIONS AND "SYMPATHY" AND SHARED HISTORY OVERRUN LOGIC AND THEY EXPIDITED THE PROCESS IN REESTABLISHING THEIR HOMELAND. WHY WOULD THEY DO OTHERWISE GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES?

HINDSIGHT = 20/20 GOD DAMN IT.

Hell at no point have I personally raised an opinion that either of them have right to/deserve the land. This is only such an issue because these days we're accustomed to the preservation of boarders and sovereignty and blah blah blah.

Israel is wrong, the palestinians are wrong and currently the israelis are in the news this time around. If you want to be anti-semetic I encourage you to because arabs are semetic people as well. F**k them all.

[Exar_Kun]

Hmm exactly what is/was the historical reasoning or otherwise behind this? Of the little I know of WWII and the Japanese participation in it, they were invading China (doing a pretty goog job of it) and the US basically sanctioned and forced them into attacking them... then the US dropped 2 bombs on 2 CITIES (civilians BE DAMNED) and ended the war in a fell swoop. Which part of this made them @$$holes exactly? Other than some sad analogy to 'ripping them a new one' with the 2 large holes in the ground formally known as Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Whoa man. The Japanese were the worst commissioners of atrocities in the entire war. Look at the article about Nanking. Japanese soldiers raping and killing all over the city, throwing babies into the air and impaling them on bayonets as they came down. The Japanese used to conduct experiments on living test subjects, cutting out bodily organs to see how the body would react to the loss. Inflicting people with diseases and combat wounds so they could better learn to treat their people.
I remember reading a story about a villager who saw Japanese planes passing overhead. He thought they were gonna bomb the place but instead they were dropping some kinda fine black stuff instead. Fleas. They took millions of fleas and threw them in boxes with rats infected with bubonic plague and then 'crop dusted' parts of the Chinese countryside.

And the worst part? They almost all got away with it. The U.S. gave all the doctors etc amnesty in exchange for their research findings.
Bad enough? It's actually a bit worse. Germany as a country feels HORRIBLY about the Holocaust to the extent that the Nazis are a national shame and they restrict their free speech rights considerably just to disallow Nazi propagation. But Japan? They don't even acknowledge that they did anything. They never apologized to the people of China, to the dead, to the infected, to the women who were forced to work in pleasure houses for the soldiers. They sanitize all their text books so the Japanese public is never taught anything about what they did and they deny it to the world, trying to downplay numbers whenever they can.

So think the Nazis were bad? The Japanese were worse. And they can't even admit it and apologize either.

[Synchronomyst]

So as was said...the Japanese are kind of a**holes.

[Redlum08]

All of this matters not like I said, After 2012 and the Galactic Eclipse of the Sun we may not be here anymore to care....LOL..Why aren't people focusing on the Mayan calender ending indicating a major global event of galactic proportions! *Redlum whistles while walking out the thread*

[Synchronomyst]

You should sell all your stuff and see the world, then.

[daniboy79]

good goin red! thanks for breaking the monotony of verbal diarrhea! lol

*braces for attack*