Separation of Church and State.

[Crixx_Creww]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Exercise_Clause


What i believe to be the single most important act the US government has ever created.
Although... probably has a direct correlation to their level of ungodliness.... but STILLLL

its sooo bloody well important.

I was recently speaking to a very very good friend of mine, shes like a turbo devout christian(probably wouldnt like me calling her that but oh well ) and after she spoke to me honestly about some issues i have with religion.

I on a whim asked her wats her stance on separation of church and state, an she was like wats that. and i was like hmm

and explained to her. and she was like oh!
nah i think that totally suckorz...

so of course i immediately was afraid and was like omg shes totally gonna send de inquisition for me nowzz...

but then i gave her the link an shes like sweet, ill read it.


So, just wanna get a discussion going.
Iam guessing there are some religious type folkzorz here. so
Between the religious people, and the non religious,
what you guys think of this issue.



Iam partly doing this because there are about 12 rum shop topics active...

thas too much unimportant jazz going on there.

[Arcmanov]

Separation of church and state is necessary in a multi-ethnic/multi-cultural society.  Having a government based on religion (and its usually a single religion) usually does not bode well with citizens who are not part of that religion.  Its also to prevent religious fanaticism from having that much power (to govern).

A religious gov't makes and passes laws based on that religion's doctrine and principles, which may not necessarily be OK with everybody.  Case in point, the local casino issue.  The PM made certain decisions from a so-called 'moral' standpoint, based in part in his religious beliefs that gambling is immoral.  Of course we ALL saw the backlash from the population at large, especially the casino workers themselves.

Do you think if we were a religious state, say, muslim, we would have carnival, fetes, and all the alcohol we love so much?
Oh HELL no.  Them b1tches would get outlawed and outright banned with the QUICKNESS!!!.  A lot of the freedoms we enjoy would not even exist.  People could be put to death for something that might be 'immoral', but not necessarily bad, or illegal (like adultery).

The flip-side to all this is that religious states generally have less strife, less crime and turmoil (there are lots of exceptions of course), than secular states.  Some may argue that TnT should become a religious state to 'end all the problems', but who decides which religion the gov't should align with?  What guarantee is there that more problems may not be created if this happens?

The writers of many western-world constitutions, while belonging to specific religions themselves, had enough foresight to understand the implications of allowing religious doctrine to 'infect' gov't as a whole.

I for one am GLAD that church and state is separate.  If we had to contend with leaders of the Benny Hinn variety, we would be much worse off than we are now, but thats just my opinion.............b1tches.

[TrinireturnofGamez]

 Seperation of church and state is crucial i think, even people in the same church will share different ideas on the same issues, trying to bring religion into politics like what manning is doing will only cause havoc , especially in a multi cultural society like trinidad . 
    Morality should be up to people to decide , and the leaders of their respective religions if they choose to follow them , no government should be allowed to force morals upon the public , even if the majority wants it , it is taking away our freedoms.

[Synchronomyst]

Anyone who is against the separation of church and state is an -idiot-.


Not to attack your friend, Crixx...but you know why I believe she said no? Because she got caught up in the word "church" and being a ultra mega hyper blaster zord Christian that she is...she's applying her concepts of a Christian morality and a a Christian "church" to her understanding of what it would mean for the separation of church a state and she's ignoring the idea of any other religion even vaguely being taken for consideration.

You should ask her in terms of Sceintology and see what he response would be? It's bound to be something along the lines of Scientology being "wrong, stupid" and it "not being the same thing"...but it is because it's as retarded as I admit I believe Scientology is...it is ultimately just another belief system.

There is no need to legislate "righteouness"...there's a concensus of morality that we all share which can be described be Jesus' mantra "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or simply... "Just don't hurt other people" there's no need to legislate past that...anything else boarders on indignant intolerance.

[Crixx_Creww]

so ultra left wingers in the fold?

no zealots?

really dying to get there feed back on this

[disciple]

lol@ turbo christian
lol@ ultra mega hyper zord christian

nah but on a serious note. i believe everyone has a right to worship who they want ( and not worship, if they so desire)

in any event, wouldnt it be more pleasing to (insert deity) if you worshipped of your own free will, and not cuz yuh could get sent to jail? lol

[rb]

People tend to take the whole church and state thing way too seriously IMO, I think the main reason why it's a big deal in the US is that the US were founded on the principles of the 10 commandments and "christian" values, hence the reason In God We Trust. In the end that didn't stop slavery or racial tension from continuing for so long.

I still lol @ people who jump on Hinn case.

Remember the "don't say Amen" at the end of the IRO prayer back in school ?

[Arcmanov]

I suppose if we were to become a 'religious' state, only then the 'church and state thing' should be taken seriously, right?

This IS a serious issue, especially for us, because more and more it seems that our PM attempts to 'legislate righteousness' through his budget implementations and many of his own words.  He is also fully supported by who else, the so-called 'religious-right' in this country, the born-again christian movement, and none other than the Jamaican PM, who herself is an unabashed supporter of religion in politics and gov't.

'Lord help us' indeed.

[Crixx_Creww]

People tend to take the whole church and state thing way too seriously IMO, I think the main reason why it's a big deal in the US is that the US were founded on the principles of the 10 commandments and "christian" values, hence the reason In God We Trust. In the end that didn't stop slavery or racial tension from continuing for so long.

I still lol @ people who jump on Hinn case.

Remember the "don't say Amen" at the end of the IRO prayer back in school ?

well. the separation of church and state thing became famous cause of america

but the real fears that are put to rest by this act , are the atrocities that took place in england by the government over the church and also cause of things like the crusades, where the church had the power to put to death scores of people because they werent catholic or christian.


that kind of thing is realllllyyyyyyy scary and its really important to never ever forget that

[Arcmanov]

My first choice would be secular, but then we have prayers from christian, muslim, and hindu faiths at all official state functions now, so........

[disciple]

nah man. we secular..

the fact that we offer prayers for all religions  perhaps shows we multicultural, and tolerant

but no religion is enshrined in our constitution

i.e. yuh doh get fined for breakin the sabbath, or not wearin a hijab , or eatin beef

[W1nTry]

I have 2 takes on this matter.
1. It is a necessity to have said separation for any 1 of the many reasons ppl have already stated, most important probably being to prevent radical/extermist type activities. We've seen through history that more ppl have been killed in the name of 'God' than for any other reason (save maybe accumulated diseases) and as such we can extrapolate that such fanaticism would undoubtedly 'corrupt' a government if left unchecked. I think we as Trinbagonians have a unique and very tolerant view of a mutli ethnic/religious society and as such we've been mostly secular over the years as an independant state. I think that the recent spur of public holiday changes and award name changes do show that we are growing somewhat intolerant though... and i'll not comment on what our PM is doing with gambling amoungst other things *coughs, smelter, coughs* as i've already stated I think he's lost his mind, so he's excused on the basis that he's ALOT short of a full set...

2. Whilst the distinct separation of religion and state is ultimately more positive than negative (we hope) what we also find happening around the world lately is the complete removal of 'God' from all state related institutions e.g. schools. I think this is a bad thing. Imho religion or to put it another way moral/ethical instruction is critical to the development of society as a whole. From my personal observation over my lifetime (which by no means is short or long) it strikes me that as we become a more 'Godless' people, generally, the quality of life deteriorates. The way I see it, is that most moral instruction is derived or based upon religious teachings and as such i'd rather use religion as the term versus moral unstruction. The fundamental truth is that most religions have the same basic principles and values, regardless of colour, location or name. In this respect I think that the separation of state and religion is negative (please keep in mind I refer to not the government in particular but rather the government run institutions that help cradle our society).

[disciple]

i don't believe religion and morality are mutually exclusive, nor are they one and the same...

i.e. a moral structure can be taught without claiming that if you don't live according to it, you'll burn in hell/be reincarnated as a cockroach

[W1nTry]

i.e. a moral structure can be taught without claiming that if you don't live according to it, you'll burn in hell/be reincarnated as a cockroach

Not all religions teach this

[disciple]

lol. different religions teach different things,yes.. but the point i was trying to illustrate is that you don't need a big stick over your head ( in the form of an omnipotent being, or the promise of an afterlife, or whatever it may be...) to live well..

[Cross]

i don't believe religion and morality are mutually exclusive, nor are they one and the same...

i.e. a moral structure can be taught without claiming that if you don't live according to it, you'll burn in hell/be reincarnated as a cockroach

you can be reincarnated as a cockroach? crap

I for one support the separation of Church and State.

However if i read W1n's comment correctly I agree that a moral standpoint should be taken by the State.

[disciple]

ah.. but whose moral standpoint?

to some people. divorce is immoral, and shouldnt be allowed...

to others, men and women should not have contact unless they are married


i think apart from laws that prevent anarchy ( don't kill anyone, don't steal, and taxes,etc) the government should stay out of my business..

you don't need the government to raise your child.... tha's a cop-out

[W1nTry]

i think apart from laws that prevent anarchy ( don't kill anyone, don't steal, and taxes,etc) the government should stay out of my business..

you don't need the government to raise your child.... tha's a cop-out

My question to this is, without some level of monitoring or some legislation to allow the state to intervene in a family (eg. Child wellfare) what happens when parents a lvl mcs abusing kids in the closet? The Gov may not need to raise your child but who else will put UR @$$ in prison for abusing ur kids if not the gov?

[Synchronomyst]

i think apart from laws that prevent anarchy ( don't kill anyone, don't steal, and taxes,etc) the government should stay out of my business..

you don't need the government to raise your child.... tha's a cop-out

My question to this is, without some level of monitoring or some legislation to allow the state to intervene in a family (eg. Child wellfare) what happens when parents a lvl mcs abusing kids in the closet? The Gov may not need to raise your child but who else will put UR @$$ in prison for abusing ur kids if not the gov?

Yes...but this is the general morality of social conciousness. As much as he didn't mention that I'm certain this was implied. His examples were alluding to the idea that once you're not -overtly- hurting anyone physically or psychologically the government needs to back the hell up. Libertarianism, so to speak.

[disciple]

i think apart from laws that prevent anarchy ( don't kill anyone, don't steal, and taxes,etc) the government should stay out of my business..

you don't need the government to raise your child.... tha's a cop-out

My question to this is, without some level of monitoring or some legislation to allow the state to intervene in a family (eg. Child wellfare) what happens when parents a lvl mcs abusing kids in the closet? The Gov may not need to raise your child but who else will put UR @$$ in prison for abusing ur kids if not the gov?

Yes...but this is the general morality of social conciousness. As much as he didn't mention that I'm certain this was implied. His examples were alluding to the idea that once you're not -overtly- hurting anyone physically or psychologically the government needs to back the hell up. Libertarianism, so to speak.

thanks, synchronomyst... lol..    thas exactly what i was saying..

wintry,  i said 'apart from  laws that prevent anarchy ( don't kill , don't steal and taxes , etc)'

'child abuse' would clearly fall under 'etc'..... now i could spell out each and every incident that would also fall under 'etc'.. but that would make for a very long post....

when i said you don't need the gov't to raise your child, i was referring to the religious/moral aspect, as per the forum topic - separation of church and state....



as synchronomyst put it, the govt locking you up for child abuse  is the general morality of social consciousness, and is not the exclusive province of any religious belief structure