A question of upgrades

[W1nTry]

Here's the deal. I am looking at an upgrade and these are the parts. The combination is the real problem though. Can't yet figure out the best way to go. Note its an incremental upgrade so if you reply with upgrade to AM2 or Core2 nonsense I will delete the post immediately. I have decent memory and a decent CPU. Hence a complete upgrade just isn't practical (funds wise). So the choices are:

Abit AT8 32X - ATI Crossfire 3200 chipset (supports 16x2 PCIe)
Abit AN8 32X - Nvidia nforce 4 SLI (supports 16x2 PCIe)
Mobos are priced the same ~ 120USD

Asus X1950Pro - 190USD
eVGA 7950GT (256MB) - 220USD

The best combination to me seems to be AT8 32X + 7950GT. The reason behind this is that the Xfire 3200 mobo is better than the nforce variant by all reviews as its a better solution than having 2 north bridges to accomplish 32 PCIe lanes. Not that the SLI mobo is bad by any means, its just not as good. Then a 7950GT with 24 pipes versus a 12pipe card, even with a 30USD difference is worth it to me. I do have some concerns about compatibility but i've not come across any with this config yet (please do post links if ANYONE does find incompatibilities). I also figure that I can sell the 7950 later on and get an ATI DX10 part and still have the luxury of Xfire if I am EVER so inclined. Oh, I have on order an OCZ 600W SLI PSU. Thus SLI/Xfire eh no problem (power wise). Let me know your take on the situation.

Lastly, there is 1 more option just in case, scrap dual cards and get a cheap nforce 4 mobo with 1 16x PCIe slot, crap load of PCI and PCIe 1x and lime with the 7950 and upgrade to DX10 mid range (8600) when it comes out, it would reduce cost by I estimate up to 35USD.

[Crixx_Creww]

...







i atleast like the 7950 to 8600 idea... everything else...

[TrinireturnofGamez]

 Depends on the game you want to play , x1950 GT has 12 texture units but 36 pixel shading units . Any shader intensive game will go faster on the ATI card eg. Oblivion . Texture intensive , especially Doom engine games will go faster on the Nvidia .
   
  If i were you , i would wait out a  2 months for ATI AMD to launch their DX10 cards  . Likely by then you'll see the 8800GTS or something fall to  250 ish prices soon . ATI's card looks to be alot faster , peliminary specs indicate that it will have alot more raw bandwidth and processing power , though it will be a power hungry  hot b!tch and cost 700 US at launch . You won't be able to get one , but likely it  will push 8800s into your price bracket.

 You'll need that OCZ 600w no matter what happens . Video cards are getting more and more powerful with no turning back in the short term . You won't see a high end card drop below 150 watts consumption probably ever  again.

[Arcmanov]

I thought you were at least at the NForce4 Ultra level already.

I have been actually considering NForce4 SLI as well, as the 7900 GS I recently got has fallen to a real nice price.  In my case, I would just need the board, and the video-card, as I already have a 600W PSU.

Of course the SLI would lead to a substantial performance boost, but right now, I personally don't think that its worth the extra hassle.  My PSU is just about maxed out as is.

My personal preference would have been the Asus board.  Reason?  Compatibility.
I KNOW a dual 7900 GS setup would just SIZZLE on that board.  Never mind the Crossfire
is just that much better.  Would I really notice the difference?  I think not.

[Beomagi]

Abit AT8 32X - ATI Crossfire 3200 chipset (supports 16x2 PCIe)
Abit AN8 32X - Nvidia nforce 4 SLI (supports 16x2 PCIe)
Mobos are priced the same ~ 120USD

Asus X1950Pro - 190USD
eVGA 7950GT (256MB) - 220USD

The best combination to me seems to be AT8 32X + 7950GT. The reason behind this is that the Xfire 3200 mobo is better than the nforce variant by all reviews as its a better solution than having 2 north bridges to accomplish 32 PCIe lanes. Not that the SLI mobo is bad by any means, its just not as good. Then a 7950GT with 24 pipes versus a 12pipe card, even with a 30USD difference is worth it to me. I do have some concerns about compatibility but i've not come across any with this config yet (please do post links if ANYONE does find incompatibilities). I also figure that I can sell the 7950 later on and get an ATI DX10 part and still have the luxury of Xfire if I am EVER so inclined. Oh, I have on order an OCZ 600W SLI PSU. Thus SLI/Xfire eh no problem (power wise). Let me know your take on the situation.

Lastly, there is 1 more option just in case, scrap dual cards and get a cheap nforce 4 mobo with 1 16x PCIe slot, crap load of PCI and PCIe 1x and lime with the 7950 and upgrade to DX10 mid range (8600) when it comes out, it would reduce cost by I estimate up to 35USD.

One northbridge per mobo. What some boards do is use an x16 slot from the northbridge, and an x16 from the southbridge but that decreases performance. Either way, even if it were x8, you're not going to see a difference - the graphics power is enough to really push that level of bandwidth.

I don't see why you'll go for the xfire board over a single slot board - an upgrade from nvidia + xfire board to use the xfire board to full potential involves the cost of 2 new cards and a loss on the 7950 - doable, but costly. And one powerful card is still a better option than multiple cheaper cards. Your last option is by far the most appealing.

what res is your monitor? I take it you're on an old agp 939 board atm?

[W1nTry]

That would be correct Beo. I am on a nforce 3Ultra 939 AGP mobo. The last option isn't bad (and would definitey be an nforce4 option) however the price difference isn't that great (40USD) and having an additional PCIe 16x slot (which as far as I know is backward compatible to use of PCIe 1x/4x/8x) is a nice added bonus, plus more SATA ports as well. The 7950 is  DX9 part and whilst nice, will be obsolete in months if not shorter, so yes there will be a loss. I do agree that 1 powerful card will usually suffice, but its nice to have the upgrade path. I was reading something this morning about the AGP X1950Pro soon to be released. This could be a completely different option and 1 that might just be the best. Just change out my card, get more power (maybe not DX10) and let the rig escape the scrap yard a little later. It is probably the most cost effective, but we've yet to see the prices of these cards... they may end up being expensive (most likely) and not worth the trouble. As for my monitor, I have a 19" CRT and whilst my desktop res is usually an odd 1152x864 for viewing, I play games at 1280x1024. I suppose I could opt for a single slot nforce 4 mobo and the 7950, I was just a bit partial to keeping the DAAMIT brand as the 7950 was a temporary card since I would NEED a PCIe vid card.

Update: GG, I saw a X1950Pro AGP on newegg... 512MB card... but ~300USD. I could get myself a single PCIe mobo+7950 for that price... that seems to be the way to go... time will tell and more input from the forum wouldn't hurt.

[Arcmanov]

Well, I can tell you that the NForce 4 Ultra chipset performs ADMIRABLY on the MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum/Diamond mobos.

There is absolutely no game I cannot play at the moment, without settings on high (does that sound right?).
The only reason I don't play at 1280x1024 is because of my current monitor, but I'm sure the system will perform
quite nicely at that res also.

I say, upgrade to the NForce 4 Ultra mobo with single PCIe and the 7950 GT (which I've seen on Amazon for as low as 219  US$).  It will save you as much money as possible, while still providing a WICKED performance boost.

Have to agree with Beomagi here.  That would be the most cost-effective option.

[Beomagi]

If you're looking at upgrading to next gen videocards, then consider other 7900 class cards. The 7950gt is a bit more powerful overall than the x1950 pro. If you're looking at an upgrade later, then even a 7900gt or 7900gs will suffice. The gs is as low as $144 after rebate, and $175 without. The performance delta between the 7900gs and 256MB 7950gt is fair, but the $75 or so saved (rebate) can go to the dx10 card that will replace it. If that money is enough to aid the jump from say an 8600 class to 8800 class card, the money saved it worth it.

here's a performance chart to help determine if it's enough power
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce7950gt.html

Do note - the 7950gt tested is the 512MB version which makes a difference in games with high texture levels - oblivion (especially with landscape mods), quake 4 on ultra etc. if you're looking at a 256MB version, the the performance will be a little slower.

problem with sli and xfire, is the low gains in the majority of games. BIG games get the tweaks to make em work out, smaller games, and sleeper hits dont.

here's a collection i made a while back
http://beomagi.ath.cx/graphicsweighting.xls

see the "zero point choices" ? set a 1 to the card(s) you wish to compare against. The numbers in yellow on the lower tables are weighted averages compared to the set card.

Fight now, the fps from a single 7900gtx is weighted as 1. note that for anand and techreport the sli gain is high - 76% and 53%, but as more games were tested - see xbit - 42% gain when many more games were tested. In numerous games, the gains were small - age of empires - 9%, snowblind - loss of 33%!, farcry - 9% and 11% at times. The big names got the best performance increases. Crossfire average gains were smaller. Multicard is going to get you on average a resolution or 2 extra, maybe aa when you couldn't before, but too often for many games you're not going to get your money's worth.

edit : fix techreport zeropoint calc in sheet.

[Crixx_Creww]

nice to see a non technical bogged down big up of the prowess of the 7950 gt

[W1nTry]

There is 1 more thing to add to this equation for the upgrade. Whilst I do see the sense in taking say a 7900GS and perhaps an upgrade to a 8xxx series card later on, you have to consider that I want to see a definite gain in performance over the X800XT. Now yes, the 7 series adds SM3.0 but otherwise the X8xx series cards were great for SM2.0 performance.Thus the 7950. And the version I was looking at is the 256MB version as its cheaper. If I go cheaper than that it would most likely be the X1950Pro. That card too is in the 180USD region and will definitely show performance gains over my current card, plus perform better in games like Oblivion and other shader intensive games. Either way its been settled. My choice was:

Asus A8N-E mobo and eVGA 7950GT (256MB)

This will pair nicely with the 4400 X2 and OCZ PSU. Retaining my RAM (corsair XMS XLL 512x2) and most other parts (HDs, sound card, optical drives). I guess i'll have parts for sale soon, or give the past rig to the younger bros.

[Arcmanov]

Good choice there.  Can't go wrong with either.

[Crixx_Creww]

only 1 gig of ram? and the asus would be the better of those two

evga rox, no doubt, but for a card like the 7950, asus will have a sicko implementation of it, i highly recommend.

[W1nTry]

Something I only now thought about... what about the X1900XT 256MB card? its the same price as the 7950GT 256MB.... quick responses on this one if I hadda change the item. BW Crixx wdmc you get that sig? LMAO

[Beomagi]

x1900xt 256MB will indeed be my pick if you can find it.
core and memory clocks are the same as the x1900xt 512MB. Max pc's original budget pick (back when ati seemed to be making more). at mid and lower resolutions, and so long as textures aren't sickeningly high(quite a few games), it's performance equals the 512MB version.


I just had to save that gif

newegg seems to have an open box version of it
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102051R
and a conect3d version
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814142085
both around $200
nothing from zipzoomfly or monarchpc.

sorry for the slow response, only just got up. Sick all day

The x1900xt 256MB is a GREAT idea, but they're near extinct, with most stores selling them for near $300. Pick one up while you can. Should also be good on resale.

[Beomagi]

there's also the x1950xt, which is faster, packing 256MB at 1800MHz
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102067

350MHz over the x1900xt, same core.