THE GENERAL ALL-PURPOSE NARUTO THREAD

[W1nTry]

I wouldn't even give him that much credit tbh. Just putting him that high already means having him exceed Jiraiya's capabilities.
As for the last, he's a Hokage candidate because he's the best they have left. I mean it's either him or Gai the way I see it. Obvious choice there.

This isn't correct as Jaraiya technically took out not 1 not 2 but 3 BODIES and actually  he took out 1 body TWICE so technically you could say he took out 4 bodies or have you forgotten. ONLY because pain has 6 bodies did he get the up on Jaraiya. Thus me saying Kakashi can take out 2 is quite plausible and still below Jaraiya.

You're forgetting another factor though, Oro's body was starting to fail. That's why he left, not because he reached his 100% limit. I'll remind you that very shortly after this he was actually on his deathbed unable to do basically anything such that he was easy prey for Sasuke.
Also I don't think his Kusanagi strike was meant to be killing either. 4TK had proven itself tough enough that he had to try something to actually score some points on his own. He says both before the fight and when he decides to withdraw that the entire thing was 'playtime'.
Lastly you mention Jiraiya being wounded from trying to put the seal on him, but you'll notice that Oro would have been able to do that very early in the fight if he wanted to since he puts his fist in 4TK's face. This is Oro in a dying body as well. So it's not like he was trying to do anything so drastically different from what Orochimaru was capable of doing.

I agree that Oro wasn't at 100% however I would not put Naruubi down as to say it was playtime (yes he did say something to that effect) but Oro knew quite well he could have gotten killed and almost did by the... 'K-O-KEN' that Naruubi plant on him (he had to summon 3 gates to defend himself and they all failed as I recall). I also think the Kusenagi WAS intended to kill as Oro was SURPRISED when he realized it did NOT pierce him. As for Oro easily being able to accomplish placing the seal on Naruubi, I agree, but that goes back to the point YOU made about certain match ups NOT being ideal. Sure Oro is prolly faster (this is debatable after seeing Senin mode) but Oro is a freaking snake, he could out manuever Naruubi whereas Jaraiya could not.

It's unreasonable to think that Sasuke can surpass Rasenshuriken quite frankly in terms of pure difficulty. It took Naruto 20 years to learn to do it and it's a jutsu that neither Minato nor Jiraiya nor Kakashi was ever able to do.
Sasuke's chakra abilities also have NOT been shown to be level with Naruto. Rasengan is spatial manipulation of the highest order and Sasuke cannot do anything comparable. The facts simply do not show him as ever having a learning and execution capability for jutsus that exceeded Naruto's.
Whatever Sasuke is likely to come up with in future is more sharingan hax. And even then my point is that his 'that jutsu' will be crushed by the power of Naruto's 'that jutsu'.

You pointed out that ORO is a complete bad@$$ and Sasuke was constantly learning techniques from him, to suggest that sasuke doesn't have at least S-Rank jutsu in his arsenal would be @$$enine :p I agree the Rasenshiruken is NOTHING to be scoffed at, but you yourself said it took 20 years. What do you think Sasuke could do with 20 years and combining S-ranked jutsu?

Sharingan copying wheel still has limits. Sasuke is limited by what his body can legitimately do. All he will learn is the method through reading the handsigns (one reason why rasengan apparently can't be copied).
Sasuke's body simply is not able to do rasenshuriken or something or a similar nature. It's past his limit. He doesn't have the chakra reserves. Think about it this way, Sasuke's chidori limit during chuunin exams was TWO. On the other hand when Naruto was learning rasengan he was spinning chakra whole day and has never been shown to have a limit on how many he can do.
PTS we know he has the capacity to do several thousand rasengans AT LEAST. And yet he can do THREE Rasenshurikens. How can Sasuke compare to the power of Naruto's latent Kyuubi chakra?

Sasuke has already shown his body had FAR surpassed most other nin in the naruverse. He SINGLE handedly defeated an akatsuki member whom Kakashi AND Naruto couldn't EVEN capture after he had NO ARMS. That says alot, I do think it was a favourable match up being lightning vs. Earth and all, but still Naruto had a team fighting Kakuza before he stepped in. Its no small feat either, HOWEVER Naruto cannot claim to have singlehandedly taken on an akatsuki member and WON. Chakra capacity is one thing, skill is another. Naruto has chakra to blow thats for sure, but all that power wouldn't do him much good if he can't properly use it. Case in point, Itachi put him in a Genjutsu he couldn't escape and all he used was his FINGER :p sasuke has already been shown to have very good use of Genjutsu as he used against deidara, as it stands Sasuke would wipe the floor with Naruto atm.

I'm not trying to push a position, it's been pretty much stated. Kakashi said it himself, Naruto will be the person to create a jutsu higher than S-rank. Then he started teaching him the steps for Rasenshuriken. Rasenshuriken is higher than S-rank. Everything else is S-rank or lower.
People are forgetting that three of the most brilliant minds in the Narutoverse, including the proclaimed "Greatest Ninja Konoha ever created", have failed to create this jutsu.

Keep in mind its a last resort jutsu that does him more damage than good. Meaning its pretty useless atm. He needs to work on it some more but thats getting sidetracked. It was also mentioned that aside from Kakashi and the 4th being unable to complete it, the reason is because they don't have the chakra that naruto has. THe Kyubi is what gives NAruto the edge to perform this jutsu. I mean come on, SADLY the RASENSHIRUKEN WAS WASH, RINSE, REPEAT of Rasengan. IF YOU ONLY KNOW HOW DISAPPOINTED I WAS IN KISHI FOR THAT!!! 2 clones == Rasengan, 3 clones== Rasenshiruken... anyhow you look at it, its DAFT :p Naruto's chakra capacity is what allowed him to perform this, I can't see it being much more than that sadly...

What I'm saying is this, Naruto has demonstrated that he is superior to Sasuke when it comes to learning new jutsu. This is not debatable. Rasengan is a couple weeks? Sasuke doing Chidori against Gaara had everyone marvelling at his new power. Naruto using Rasengan against Kabuto had Orochimaru abandoning his battle with Jiraiya specifically to kill Naruto because the fact that he could learn rasengan showed how dangerous he was.
Given this fact, how is Sasuke supposed to have created something in 3 years grater than something that took Naruto 20? It doesn't add up in a mathematical sense.
I agree that clone learning was made up on the spot to give Naruto an edge. But it's there. It's no different from harping on about Sharingan, which has had so many abilities pulled out it's ass that Santa might want to consider stocking presents for all the world's children there. Tons of room.

I think I addressed this already. Sasuke can QUICKLY learn a jutsu, Naruto takes time, however he can perfect and learn once he has the time. Meaning his ridiculous clone learning jutsu :p in an actual battle, Sasuke's ability is much more useful. Meaning he can use the enemies jutsu against him quickly vs. Naruto who would be more like the backup. To put it in a different way Sasuke is the scout, Naruto is the heavy hitter. Both have equally important roles and both have their benefits and weaknesses.

Very plausible. However Naruto has main character hax which is why I'm certain that whatever he uses will be better than what the other guy has. But I don't argue this idea.
This is of course assuming that the final battle in the series is Naruto vs Sasuke. If not Naruto will quickly outstrip him in power as the series wears on.

Naruto already surpasses him in POWER that was never a dispute, however power isn't very useful without knowing how to control it, and as it stands he cannot thus sasuke has the edge atm. I want Naruto to surpass or at least equal Sasuke beleive me, I was CUSSING wondering what naruto was doing for 2 years PTS seeing as Sasuke was LEAPS AND BOUNDS above in terms and skill. But at the same time to say that Naruto has shown his superiority to Sasuke is well FUD imho at least ATM!

[spinner]

nxt chapter should be interesting seeing jiraiya got put down rel hard and im sure by now THAT is not a bushin. another thing tho is that gets me is whenever there's some big relevation to come out, it gets silenced...hate when that happens

[Synchronomyst]

I'll find that scan later...it's around naruto's initial appearance. But wow...Crixx is being disgustingly disingenous.


http://tinyurl.com/2kafs2

Do you mean this, Crixx? You know...during his training? Not the battle?

http://tinyurl.com/2luetd

Because as you can see here...he can do it on his own.

[Crixx_Creww]

maybe i was mistaken about the inbattle help, if i was, my mistake, ill check my stuff and get back on that, but thanks for the pic sync

what i really wanna deal with is how exar keeps ignoring the very very valid points winny and i keep making about naruto, sasuke, oro, jiraiya and kakashi!!

also, kakashi can also do kage bunshin so therefore he can also do the completly ridiculous mega learnings of many clones all at once jutsu that kishi pulled out of his a$$ just like winny said.

And how can you say that naruto has more potential to learn jutsu than sasuke???
lol??  lets go over the amount of jutsu's naruto is known to use.

Kage bunshin
Rasengan
Oodama Rasengan
Rasenshuriken
Kuchiyose
and well that naruto rendan lameness
Wow... amaaazzzaazzzzing...

Sasuke?
Housenka no jutsu
goukakyuu no jutsu
Ryuyuuka no jutsu
That flikker speed thingy
Chidori
His modifications of chidori i believe 3 total
Genjutsu
Time space teleportation

thats all i can remember off the top of my head from what was revealed he knows
from the count thats twice as many as naruto

and we have no idea how many he learned from oro
as for saying he can only copy what his body can handle

have we ever seen sasuke copy somethign and then falter??
hes not kakashi he has a genuine fortified uchiha body
as well as juin 2!!
which has provided him a ridiculous amount of chakura!!

also!! he probably learned some of kabuto's jutsu!!!
remember how kabuto didnt wanna use his jutsu around kakashi for fear he would steal them??

[Exar_Kun]

This isn't correct as Jaraiya technically took out not 1 not 2 but 3 BODIES and actually  he took out 1 body TWICE so technically you could say he took out 4 bodies or have you forgotten. ONLY because pain has 6 bodies did he get the up on Jaraiya. Thus me saying Kakashi can take out 2 is quite plausible and still below Jaraiya.

I understand now what you mean. But isn't that assumption based strictly on a mathematical prediction?
"Well Jiraiya can kill 4 so kakashi can do 2."
Jiraiya had to use an incredibly powerful genjutsu to kill the 3, well beyond anything Kakashi can do. And the 4th essentially got trapped. While I don't doubt Kakashi's abilities if he came up against all 6 Pains at once I really don't think he can do anything but die without scratching them. One or two at a time, then that's different.

I agree that Oro wasn't at 100% however I would not put Naruubi down as to say it was playtime (yes he did say something to that effect) but Oro knew quite well he could have gotten killed and almost did by the... 'K-O-KEN' that Naruubi plant on him (he had to summon 3 gates to defend himself and they all failed as I recall). I also think the Kusenagi WAS intended to kill as Oro was SURPRISED when he realized it did NOT pierce him. As for Oro easily being able to accomplish placing the seal on Naruubi, I agree, but that goes back to the point YOU made about certain match ups NOT being ideal. Sure Oro is prolly faster (this is debatable after seeing Senin mode) but Oro is a freaking snake, he could out manuever Naruubi whereas Jaraiya could not.

I dunno, it seems like Kusanagi was the next logical step in his attacks after taijutsu and snakes failed. Being struck by Kusanagi doesn't guarantee a kill. Certainly by this point he was well aware of the toughness of 4TK. What do you theorize then would have been the reason for him deciding to kill Naruto? He had a vested interest in Naruto remaining alive so they could continue killing the Akatsuki that were going to hunt him down.
I don't think Oro's speed is so much greater than Jiraiya's that he would have an appreciable advantage in putting the seal. Jiraiya is certainly very resourceful. But without seeing the fight it's hard to conclusively argue either way I suppose.

You pointed out that ORO is a complete bad@$$ and Sasuke was constantly learning techniques from him, to suggest that sasuke doesn't have at least S-Rank jutsu in his arsenal would be @$$enine :p I agree the Rasenshiruken is NOTHING to be scoffed at, but you yourself said it took 20 years. What do you think Sasuke could do with 20 years and combining S-ranked jutsu?

S-rank is nothing to laugh at. I've looked through jutsu lists and the only offensive jutsus I've ever seen as S-rank are Raikiri and higher level rasengan variations. Most of the others are support level like Edo Tensei, body switch or Tsunade's regeneration.
I'm not saying it isn't possible that he has some, I'd probably class summoning Manda as S-rank to begin with and it isn't inconceivable that his Chidori is as powerful now as Kakashi's Raikiri.
But Rasenshuriken is so far beyond any of these it isn't even funny. Sasuke just does not have the chakra to do something that powerful. And as discussed, he wouldn't be able to learn it as quickly even if he could work like Naruto can. Naruto's learning abilities surpass his.

Sasuke has already shown his body had FAR surpassed most other nin in the naruverse. He SINGLE handedly defeated an akatsuki member whom Kakashi AND Naruto couldn't EVEN capture after he had NO ARMS. That says alot, I do think it was a favourable match up being lightning vs. Earth and all, but still Naruto had a team fighting Kakuza before he stepped in. Its no small feat either, HOWEVER Naruto cannot claim to have singlehandedly taken on an akatsuki member and WON. Chakra capacity is one thing, skill is another. Naruto has chakra to blow thats for sure, but all that power wouldn't do him much good if he can't properly use it. Case in point, Itachi put him in a Genjutsu he couldn't escape and all he used was his FINGER :p sasuke has already been shown to have very good use of Genjutsu as he used against deidara, as it stands Sasuke would wipe the floor with Naruto atm.

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm not arguing this. Sasuke is borderline ridiculous atm. If he takes out Itachi (and he will) he's essentially in the territory of Pain, Tobi, Jiraiya, 100% Oro and the first 4 Hokages.
If Naruto faces Sasuke he will be absolutely destroyed. Unless he can use 4-tail at which point Sasuke dead. Or Sasuke might just suppress Kyuubi again. And kill Naruto. And then we'll see what Kyuubi was warning him about when he said not to kill Naruto.

Keep in mind its a last resort jutsu that does him more damage than good. Meaning its pretty useless atm. He needs to work on it some more but thats getting sidetracked. It was also mentioned that aside from Kakashi and the 4th being unable to complete it, the reason is because they don't have the chakra that naruto has. THe Kyubi is what gives NAruto the edge to perform this jutsu. I mean come on, SADLY the RASENSHIRUKEN WAS WASH, RINSE, REPEAT of Rasengan. IF YOU ONLY KNOW HOW DISAPPOINTED I WAS IN KISHI FOR THAT!!! 2 clones == Rasengan, 3 clones== Rasenshiruken... anyhow you look at it, its DAFT :p Naruto's chakra capacity is what allowed him to perform this, I can't see it being much more than that sadly...

You really do naruto a disservice there. It's not just a matter of chakra, it's combining spatial and elemtnal discombobwhatever at the very highest level. There's some very strict chakra control involved.
It's not like having the huge pool is the be all to doing it, it's a serious learning process.
You realize that forming ONE Rasenshuriken is essentially taking the same chakra as forming HUNDREDS maybe THOUSANDS of Rasengans?
And it isn't useless, he can pretty much decide to use it if he wants to, and the way he was talking he'll do just that. Kinjutsu means nothing in Narutoverse, Naruto has been using forbidden techniques since before he graduated.

Naruto already surpasses him in POWER that was never a dispute, however power isn't very useful without knowing how to control it, and as it stands he cannot thus sasuke has the edge atm. I want Naruto to surpass or at least equal Sasuke beleive me, I was CUSSING wondering what naruto was doing for 2 years PTS seeing as Sasuke was LEAPS AND BOUNDS above in terms and skill. But at the same time to say that Naruto has shown his superiority to Sasuke is well FUD imho at least ATM!

To reiterate, I concur with you.
My point is to show Naruto's superiority is being able to learn and execute high level jutsu, not prove that he is the superior fighter. He has been the superior fighter at certain points in the series, but certainly not now. Not without using tailed forms anyway.

also, kakashi can also do kage bunshin so therefore he can also do the completly ridiculous mega learnings of many clones all at once jutsu that kishi pulled out of his a$$ just like winny said.

No he can't. Not like Naruto can. Kakashi could use his clones to read books and learn them off but Tajuu Kage Bunshin splits chakra evenly among the clones. So Kakashi's clones would be completely useless when there're 1000 of him since they each have 0.1% of his total chakra. Hence why Kakashi outright states that Naruto is the only person that can do this type of training.

And how can you say that naruto has more potential to learn jutsu than sasuke???
lol??  lets go over the amount of jutsu's naruto is known to use.

I never said he know MORE jutsu, but that he is capable of doing HIGHER LEVEL jutsu and also learning high level jutsu more quickly.
Both of these points cannot be disputed. They are proven facts.
As an aside I don't remember Sasuke knowing space time teleportation. Only Kakashi can do something like that with his MS.

as for saying he can only copy what his body can handle

have we ever seen sasuke copy somethign and then falter??
hes not kakashi he has a genuine fortified uchiha body
as well as juin 2!!
which has provided him a ridiculous amount of chakura!!

Quite irrelevant. Nothing he knows can provide him the sheer amount of chakra it would take to do 1000 clone training, or create something like Rasenshuriken. I'll say again, it is the chakra equivalent of HUNDREDS, possibly THOUSANDS of Rasengans. And that's not even taking into account how long it takes to learn. If it took Naruto twenty years it'd take Sasuke a hundred.

[Synchronomyst]

"As an aside I don't remember Sasuke knowing space time teleportation."

Deidara. Manda. Explosion. Deus Ex Machina. Etc

[Exar_Kun]

"As an aside I don't remember Sasuke knowing space time teleportation."

Deidara. Manda. Explosion. Deus Ex Machina. Etc

I'm pretty sure that wasn't space time teleportation. He summoned Manda, genjutsued him, went inside and then had Manda desummon and resummon at the new location. The whole damn thing was DEM but there's no space time jutsu involved.

[Synchronomyst]

Oh wait. Yes. You're right. Suigetsu summoned him.

However Suigetsu does remark that he has used space time jutsu to teleport himself to another area. I supposing summoning falls under space/time.

[Crixx_Creww]

exar

you keep making statements like naruto has god haxx and thats an indisputable fact
but when we disprove it you ignore the points we are bringing up!@!


for one, your severely downplaying the amount of chakura that sasuke has @ juin 2
and making be all and end all claims out of speculation!!
we have not seen sasuke at max potential yet you claim that its an indisputable fact that x y z
what kinda argument is that?

you keep on disregarding sasuke's potential to learn jutsu's via  sharingan
and placing naruto's potential over that of sasuke's
yet naruto with all this supposed potential has 5 jutsu's to his name!!

then of course yu go saying sasuke doesnt know space time jutsu when its right there in the manga but whatever, things like cannon facts/no guess work needed cause kishi straight up said so, means nothing to you right?


ill ask another thing
surely itachi knows kage bunshin and surely he has a massive pool of chakura
if it takes naruto 20 years to learn something
are you saying it would take itachi 100 years to learn it as well??

[W1nTry]

Well crixx I can't agree with you there on the Chakra reserves of Sasuke. Yes he is very powerful esp with Cruse seal lvl 2... however as Sasuke himself has said before, the seals use too much chakra and that form is not something he can hold for too long. Whereas Naruto has a RIDICULOUS and effectively inexhaustible supply ala Kyubi. Sasuke could not do the 1000 clone training like Naruto cause he would not manage reproducing SO many clones repeatedly in a short time frame. To put it another way Sasuke could prolly make 3000 clones meaning 3 times in a row, whereas Naruto can do it WHOLE DAY as was the case in his training.

On another note Exar, keep in mind Jaraiya took out the 3 bodies of Pain when facing JUST 3! and to say that Kakashi isn't able to perform as powerful a genjutsu whilst so far we would be inclined to believe, remember he does possess the Sharingan and after his encounter with Itachi's Mangekyou its is HIGHLY unlikely that he hasn't been preparing himself for resisting and potentially using a genjutsu of that calibre. So I would be inclined to believe that Kakashi could take out at least 2 Pain bodies if facing 3 just as Jaraiya, perhaps even take the 3 out like Jaraiya... 6 well no ONE character in the Naruverse (save perhaps Tobi since he seems to be the boss) can take them ALL on alone. And btw it wasn't a mathematical theory behind how many Kakashi could take out (meaning Jaraiya==2xKakashi) it was just a number less than Jaraiya but more than one :p but either way I said my peace about that already.

I do agree with you on the Rasenshiruken being an extremely difficult jutsu to perform, I just think that the Chakra reserve is what gives him the edge. I would sumise that sasuke with similar capabilities in terms of reserves and clone training too could acheive, however it IS so far the most powerful Ninjutsu attack we've seen to date (save the K-O-Ken of the 4 tails used against Oro which would definitely be more destructive OR the suicide of Deidara which was even more destructive).

I also hear what you're saying about leaving Naruto alive, however I do believe that Oro intended to seriously injure Naruto to render him unable to continue battling which did not occur. Either way his intent towards Naruto would still be more malicious than Jaraiya trying to seal away the chakra. And I can't agree with Oro not being more manueverable... fast perhaps Jaraiya is as fast in Senin mode, but off the bat, Oro could much easier put the seal on Naruto considering his snake like nature and appendages. He can get close to Naruto and lose a few snakes with ease, Jaraiya woul dlose what? an arm? that's not too useful.

[Exar_Kun]

It's funny you talk about me dodging points Crixx (I haven't) but yet if there's one constant in this entire debate it's you continually stating false information. Naruto using kyuubi chakra for rasenshuriken, him needing Kakashi to spin the chakra for him, Sasuke knowing space-time jutsu.

for one, your severely downplaying the amount of chakura that sasuke has @ juin 2
and making be all and end all claims out of speculation!!
we have not seen sasuke at max potential yet you claim that its an indisputable fact that x y z
what kinda argument is that?

Do you actually think that Sasuke, even as CS2, has nearly as much chakra as Naruto?
Exactly how can you think that? Naruto's chakra has dwarfed Sasuke's ever since their first days in Team 7. It's a verifiable FACT.
CS2 certainly does increase his chakra quantity however it takes only a look at the Deidara fight to see the limits of his chakra reservoir.

you keep on disregarding sasuke's potential to learn jutsu's via  sharingan
and placing naruto's potential over that of sasuke's
yet naruto with all this supposed potential has 5 jutsu's to his name!!

Let me pose a question to you: Do you deny that Naruto has shown the ability to consistently learn high level jutsu at a rate not only faster than Sasuke but more or less anybody?
You can talk about sharingan all day, but sharingan can't copy everything, only jutsu with hand signs. And even then the jutsus it reproduces are still subject to the user's limits.

then of course yu go saying sasuke doesnt know space time jutsu when its right there in the manga but whatever, things like cannon facts/no guess work needed cause kishi straight up said so, means nothing to you right?

We've already established he can't do a space-time jutsu. It's in the two posts above yours.

ill ask another thing
surely itachi knows kage bunshin and surely he has a massive pool of chakura
if it takes naruto 20 years to learn something
are you saying it would take itachi 100 years to learn it as well??

Define 'massive'. Itachi's chakra pool has never impressed. He weakens visibly after using Tsukuyomi against Kakashi. Additionally he is incapable of using MS when at 30% of his chakra. So either MS takes a massive amount of chakra (it doesn't, Kakashi has a relatively low pool and can do it) or Itachi's pool isn't as large as you think.
Now then, Kisame would be a different story. Assuming Kisame knows or can learn Kage Bunshin he can damn well do the same kind of training. Probably not at the same level of Naruto but he can certainly do it. As we have discovered, Kisame has a freakin massive chakra pool, one that has been acknowledged as such on two different occassions.

And of course you're forgetting one last thing, Naruto's high learning abilities. He proved it with Rasengan, it's undeniable.

On another note Exar, keep in mind Jaraiya took out the 3 bodies of Pain when facing JUST 3! and to say that Kakashi isn't able to perform as powerful a genjutsu whilst so far we would be inclined to believe, remember he does possess the Sharingan and after his encounter with Itachi's Mangekyou its is HIGHLY unlikely that he hasn't been preparing himself for resisting and potentially using a genjutsu of that calibre.

Well if Itachi is to be believed, there isn't anything Kakashi can do about Tsukuyomi. Only someone with the Uchiha Kekkei genkai can resist it. But whatever, I suppose Kakashi could Mangekyou a couple bodies and we can put this to rest.

I do agree with you on the Rasenshiruken being an extremely difficult jutsu to perform, I just think that the Chakra reserve is what gives him the edge. I would sumise that sasuke with similar capabilities in terms of reserves and clone training too could acheive, however it IS so far the most powerful Ninjutsu attack we've seen to date (save the K-O-Ken of the 4 tails used against Oro which would definitely be more destructive OR the suicide of Deidara which was even more destructive).

The edge in performing it certainly, but what about in learning it?
Sasuke took three months to learn Chidori, Naruto took a couple weeks to learn Rasengan(a far more impressive feat in itself). Sasuke has Kakashi constantly training him, Naruto had to make due with a general instruction while Jiraiya did 'research'.
This is the other point I want to drive home, Naruto's learning capability has been shown to far exceed any other ninja.

[W1nTry]

The edge in performing it certainly, but what about in learning it?
Sasuke took three months to learn Chidori, Naruto took a couple weeks to learn Rasengan(a far more impressive feat in itself). Sasuke has Kakashi constantly training him, Naruto had to make due with a general instruction while Jiraiya did 'research'.
This is the other point I want to drive home, Naruto's learning capability has been shown to far exceed any other ninja.

The one problem with this idea is that his variety of jutsu doesn't support this at ALL. If he was so good at learning one would think by now he would have learnt more from jaraiya either by begging or in training, but after 1+ year he hasn't learnt much AT ALL. That is the one problem that leads me to no consider him more able than sasuke atm. Now imho he should use the 1000 clone training and study every jutsu from EVERY clan in the whole of konoha as well as read every war log or battle related text that Konoha has to offer, could you IMAGINE how uber he would be if he did that for say.. a month? ah well... pipe dream immc!

[Crixx_Creww]

It's funny you talk about me dodging points Crixx (I haven't) but yet if there's one constant in this entire debate it's you continually stating false information. Naruto using kyuubi chakra for rasenshuriken, him needing Kakashi to spin the chakra for him, Sasuke knowing space-time jutsu.

*sigh* exar yur letting yur fanboyism cloud yu and yur accusing me of lying to
first off, most of the time in pst we see naruto with his eyes fox like and his teeth are now fangs
obviously at these times, hes heated and the kyuubi chakura is flowing into him changing his appearance and duh giving him chakura for his jutsu's. So iam not lying about that

second, synch provided a link right there showing kakashi making a rasengan for naruto to do the rasenshuriken
i was mistaken about him needing to do that for him in battle, but the proof is right there that kakashi had to do it for him at first! look its right there in black and white!!


and lassttlyyyy
SASUKE KNOWING SPACE TIME JUTSU!!!!! WOW
YU REALLY MUST NOT READ THE MANGA
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/14/
HERE YU GO, SUIGETSU SUMMONS MANDA TO HIS LOCATION
SASUKE STEPS OUT
SUIGETSU COMMENTS ON THE GENJUTSU
AND THENNNNNNNNNNNNN
SUIGETSU MAKES THE COMMENT THAT SASUKE USES A JUTSU TO FLY INTO A DIFFERENT SPACE!!
AKA SPACE TIME JUTSU!!!!

thats why karin couldnt detect his chakura anymroe! because he moved out of space and time to avoid the brunt of the damage and then got summoned by suigetsu!!

stop letting urself be so hurried on these accusations!!
yur a naruto fan boy so its understandable that yu dont pay enuff attention to what sasuke does
but thas no excuse really
cause i analyse the very limited abilities of naruto myself and make note of them.

As for kakashi
what he does is NOT MS that is something entirely different as stated by himself.
So dont dare put him in the same class as itachi
and as for amaterasu
thats a jutsu of the sun god!! how much chakura do yu imagine that takes to pull off??

jiraiya was confident that it was impossible to break free of the frogs throat!! and then itachi burnt it away
jiraiya had never even seen anything like that before and had to seal it away to study it!! once again
how awesome do yu have to be to surprise jiraiya?? when ur 18 no less!!!!

third and 4thly
Itachi and sasuke, can both learn kage bunshin, no worries there
jutsu controlled by hand seals, and even if they can some how only make 100 clones
that would be 100 clones with the leet haxx of sharingans!! they can more than learn the hell out of rasengan and any other jutsu!!

even kakashi can do it! pffft

also, yu focus so much on naruto's chakura shape  and wind manipulation that you seem to forget that sasuke has fire and electricity manipulation abilities! and that he has been seen doing chakura shape manipulation now!!

so that probably means that his THAT jutsu will manipulate fire, electricity AND shape!!!
thats three fields compared to naruto's two!!

sure juin 2 doesnt have as much chakura as kyuubi but sasuke is hell of alot more efficient than naruto is so he doesnt neeeeeeed as much chakura to pull off amazing jutsu!!

[W1nTry]

Actually crixx its Frog STOMACH and what kakashi does may not be what Itachi considers the Mangekyou however in the DB subtitling of the anime and in the scanlation, kakashi says Mengekyou Sharingan, so it is indeed a boot leg version but just like XP, just cause you have an illegitimate XP Pro doesn't make it LINUX :p Besides that I would place Kakashi in the same league with Itachi (though I suspect Itachi would win) I do think kakashi is being downplayed and is up there with the big boys just perhaps yuh know his lvl 70 epic gear is tier 2 and itachi is tier 5 :p

[Crixx_Creww]

lawl @ tier 5 heheehh

but yu didnt comment on my pictatorial evidence to support sasuke's uberness!!

dont let exar's roving madness infect you too

[W1nTry]

Nah I used to upload manga for Taku remember? so I am quite familiar with that, I use Japflap for the HQ scanlations and in their scan seigetsu makes a comment to that effect. I personally don't think of it as space TIME, but space for sure. I thought it a bit over the top to say space/time but hey a duck is a duck. That aside the only person I would say uses true Space/time is Tobi as he can phase in and out of reality from what we've seen.

[Cross]

*currently trying to make a tobi sig where is grey fox when you need him*

OH shocks manda died.....i now reading over the chapter...dang he was cool...

[ProtoJoe]

Well only for the sake of keeping this argument no one can win going (its one of the most entertaining things ive seen on this fourm in awhile) I just have a point to make...

second, synch provided a link right there showing kakashi making a rasengan for naruto to do the rasenshuriken
i was mistaken about him needing to do that for him in battle, but the proof is right there that kakashi had to do it for him at first! look its right there in black and white!!

Your actually wrong about this, kakashi simply made that rasengan for naruto to test out his rasenshuriken. Naruto realised how to make this by simply making another clone, but i'll give you this much, it was kakashi who gave him the idea...

]url]http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/330/04/[/url] And continue reading...

Now please, by all means continue, lol

[Exar_Kun]

The one problem with this idea is that his variety of jutsu doesn't support this at ALL. If he was so good at learning one would think by now he would have learnt more from jaraiya either by begging or in training, but after 1+ year he hasn't learnt much AT ALL. That is the one problem that leads me to no consider him more able than sasuke atm. Now imho he should use the 1000 clone training and study every jutsu from EVERY clan in the whole of konoha as well as read every war log or battle related text that Konoha has to offer, could you IMAGINE how uber he would be if he did that for say.. a month? ah well... pipe dream immc!

Agreed, but just because he doesn't do it doesn't mean he can't. I agree that Naruto's jutsu arsenal is EXTREMELY limited, but his capability to learn high level jutsu still exists.
And what you're saying would be awesome, but Naruto ain't smart enough to think of doing that. But it would be really nice if he got some range to his game.

first off, most of the time in pst we see naruto with his eyes fox like and his teeth are now fangs
obviously at these times, hes heated and the kyuubi chakura is flowing into him changing his appearance and duh giving him chakura for his jutsu's. So iam not lying about that

Time to provide a link bro. Of where he was in kyuubi mode when he used it against Kakuzu.

second, synch provided a link right there showing kakashi making a rasengan for naruto to do the rasenshuriken
i was mistaken about him needing to do that for him in battle, but the proof is right there that kakashi had to do it for him at first! look its right there in black and white!!

I can't believe you man. Kakashi said right there for him to smash his(Naruto's) fuuton rasengan against his rasengan. How he could do that if he use Kakashi rasengan to make his fuuton version? Come ON man.

thats why karin couldnt detect his chakura anymroe! because he moved out of space and time to avoid the brunt of the damage and then got summoned by suigetsu!!

Bro, the whole 'moving to another space' is Manda desummoning. Kuchiyose no jutsu IS a space-time jutsu, it summons the creatures from another dimension. Sasuke has no jutsu to move himself through space time.
But let's say he did. Exactly how is it even remotely useful? D man cyah even get himself out cause Suigetsu had to save him. The jutsu equivalent of "I've fallen and I can't get up."
But seriously it's just kuchiyose. And you'll realize that Sasuke never say anything about a space-time jutsu, how the hell d rest of them could know?

As for kakashi
what he does is NOT MS that is something entirely different as stated by himself.
So dont dare put him in the same class as itachi
and as for amaterasu
thats a jutsu of the sun god!! how much chakura do yu imagine that takes to pull off??

Oh lawd...


And sun god jutsu for reals man. Ra must be really slipping cause Jiraiya seal them flames like nuthin.
And it can't take that much chakra, since Itachi is incapable of using MS with 30% chakra and he was able to use amaterasu immediately after using tsukuyomi. And he has less chakra than Kisame. Who has less than Naruto.

jiraiya was confident that it was impossible to break free of the frogs throat!! and then itachi burnt it away
jiraiya had never even seen anything like that before and had to seal it away to study it!! once again
how awesome do yu have to be to surprise jiraiya?? when ur 18 no less!!!!

For real man. So imagine how much MORE awesome you'd have to be to surprise Orochimaru, who you and I have both described as the baddest sannin, at age TWELVE. Naruto and Rasengan FTW.
Poor Sasuke could only ever surprise lil children.

third and 4thly
Itachi and sasuke, can both learn kage bunshin, no worries there
jutsu controlled by hand seals, and even if they can some how only make 100 clones
that would be 100 clones with the leet haxx of sharingans!! they can more than learn the hell out of rasengan and any other jutsu!!

Sasuke has never shown that he can do Kage Bunshin for one thing.
For another if they made 100 clones it'd be the most useless 100 clones ever. Because they would each have 1% of the whole's chakra. So they can't do jack.

also, yu focus so much on naruto's chakura shape  and wind manipulation that you seem to forget that sasuke has fire and electricity manipulation abilities! and that he has been seen doing chakura shape manipulation now!!

so that probably means that his THAT jutsu will manipulate fire, electricity AND shape!!!
thats three fields compared to naruto's two!!

Yeah but Naruto's THAT jutsu will be using full kyuubi chakra. So that still badder =P.
But yes Sasuke has been doing elemental recombination longer than Naruto and spatial recomposition longer as well. But Naruto's jutsu use both these properties at a much higher level than Sasuke's jutsu do.

[TrinireturnofGamez]

 From a different perspective ,  i believe the Naruto /Sasuke rivalry will never be truly solved perhaps till the end of the story..

   Sasuke will be the skilled , perfect , uber ninja who can learn anything , i'm sure he can learn basic Rasengan (kakashi probably copied it himself) and maybe do a RasenganChidori if he felt like it..
    I don't think Naruto can ever really truly defeat Sasuke till he reaches his hokage status, knows hundreds or thousands of jutsu   , and can counter anything thrown at him by sasuke .
  Sasuke is 'who we'd all love to be' the cool , rich  , white dude who gets all the dudes and we'r jealous of.
  But sasuke is selfish...

 Naruto represents US , the average dude struggling to get ahead , he fights for everyone else so at the end of the day he will be king of the narutoverse , as everyone will love and respect him , even if he can't defeat Sasuke.

 Sasuke is too fast to be caught in a RasenganShuriken to begin with , His chidori will allow him to counter or copy most jutsu in general , only .

Naruto is nowhere jiraiya's level now , but the series is NAMED naruto.. Pain is obviously his nemesis for this arc as Naruto is one of the few ninja who can defeat him single handedly thanks to Bunshin...
   Naruto will  level up..  things to be seen.