Author Topic: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?  (Read 2988 times)

Offline W1nTry

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Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« on: October 16, 2006, 11:53:29 AM »
This is just an interesting take on an underdog vs. the industry 'standard' (well at least up till the A64 that was). I am sure crixx will run in this thread guns blazing if I named it differently, and its specifically for that reason I didn't. So anyways, here's just some commentary from an author about AMD's innovation and how intel has combatted it AND how Intel uses it later on as an advantage. Its a lead the dog (industry) by the head (by your own innovation) or the tail (your competitions innovation).
Quote
Intel is following in AMD's footsteps

Comment Copy-cat strategy may pay off


By John Chludzinski: Monday 16 October 2006, 15:37

SO, WHY IS IT that a company - Intel in this case - with a market cap of ~$115,000,000,000 (give or take ten billion), that has succeeded by whatever means it could get away with, has trouble matching wits with a much smaller rival - AMD in this case - with a market cap of ~$12,000,000,000 and which has had to struggle just to survive?
Some (very) brief history ... for context
Almost since their founding just one year apart (Intel in 1968 and AMD in 1969), these two arch-rivals have seemed to be in a constant state of war: Intel for dominance and AMD for survival (and respect).

In 1982, IBM forced Intel to sign a contract to license AMD as a second-source manufacturer of 8086 and 8088 processors. (IBM's policy then required at least two sources for its chips.) In 1986, Intel abrogated that agreement and consequently, in 1987, AMD sued. Eventually, in 1994, the California Supreme Court decided in AMD's favour and, in 1995, Intel signed an agreement allowing AMD to use 286, 386, and 486 microcode. In addition, though the agreement details are still largely secret, AMD and Intel appeared to have reached an understanding to share, without licence fees, any enhancements to the core x86 architecture - hence Intel's cloning of AMD64 without legal consequences or, for that matter, AMD's use of the SSEn instruction sets.

Most recently, in 2005, Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) announced that it had filed an antitrust complaint against Intel after concluding that what it called Intel's tactics of bullying and bribing its customers could no longer be tolerated. In Japan, where the Fair Trade Commission had notified Intel in 2005 it had been found guilty of "unfair business practices", AMD had seen its share of the Japanese PC market between 2002 and 2004 halved to 10.4 per cent. Similar antitrust investigations are current underway in both the EU and South Korea.

Current events (1999 till now) ...
Now lets take a look at where lil' ol' AMD has lately managed to out-engineer its much larger rival and where Intel has been forced to follow (copy):

First - AMD64 (a.k.a. X86-64). When AMD first announced its intention to extend the venerable x86 architecture, Intel derided the idea and refused to even acknowledge that it had a parallel effort afoot – just in case. It feared, and as it turned out, reasonably so, that a viable x86-64 would detract from its most favoured child – Itanium. What was even worse is that at the same time AMD had forced Intel into a performance race: Athlon v. Pentium. This was the last thing Intel wanted or needed. The result being Intel no longer had the performance gap it needed between IA32 and IA64 to drive the adoption of the Itanium. Intel relented and copied AMD64.

Second – a multi-core architecture, which AMD had designed into Athlon/Opteron from the beginning with a memory controller intended to support the multiple cores. Only when AMD had reached a mature 90nm processing technology was it able to reliably implement dual-core parts. Intel, of course, couldn't allow this to go unchallenged and introduced a "dual-core" Pentium that was in reality simply two dies packaged together. Of course, this design had limitations: core-to-core communication had to go off chip, via the FSB. And, as is usual with Intel, this required yet another new chipset (i.e., motherboard). In contrast, the dual-core Athlon/Opteron architecture uses a crossbar switch for core-to-core communications (never leaving the chip) and required only an BIOS upgrade – it pays to think ahead.

Third - an integrated memory controller (IMC), which of course Intel criticised as "not as good as" its FSB architecture. As recently as June 2006 an Intel presentation contained such critiques of an IMC as: "Tied to specific memory technology", "Requires more pins per CPU", and "Increases CPU die size and power". Well somehow Intel overcame these objections and once again decided to follow in AMD's footsteps and add an integrated memory controller into its CPU roadmap. The interesting question is, will Intel follow AMD and adopt NUMA (vs. SMP) in its upcoming architecture?

Fourth – a high-bandwidth, low-latency, chip-to-chip interconnect – HyperTransport. When it first appeared in 2001, Intel was coincidentally introducing 3GIO (a.k.a., PCI-Express [PCI-e]) and, not surprisingly, dismissed HyperTransport as unnecessary and proprietary. PCI-Express, primarily a board-to-board (backplane) interconnect, would prove HyperTransport redundant. Yet again, Intel relented and announced the "Common System Interface" (CSI) as part of its Nehalem micro architecture. And you guessed it, Intel's CEO and perpetual pitchman Paul Otellini assures us it will be better than the original - HyperTransport: faster, lower latency, "It slices! It dices! It makes julienned fries - whatever those are!" etc., etc.

And, finally, fifth - AMD's Torrenza Initiative and Intel's "pump fake" – Geneseo. In 2004, the HyperTransport Consortium announced HTX, a HyperTransport I/O expansion slot for high-performance systems. These slots used the same mechanical connector as an x16 PCI-e slot but only offers a fraction of HyperTransport's full bandwidth: 41.6 GB/s v. 6.4 GB/s. (PathScale's InfiniPath HyperMessaging HTX adapter offers a low latency cluster interconnect for MPI applications.) Expanding on this concept, in June AMD released its Torrenza Innovation Socket, a plan to open up its Opteron socket specification, allowing third party developers to offer co-processors. As part of this, AMD released a detailed description of a two-socket motherboard with an Opteron in one socket and a co-processor in the other. With the high-bandwidth, low-latency, and cache coherency offered by HyperTransport - the era of co-processing has effectively returned.

Not to be outdone, Intel cobbled together a quick response - Geneseo - based on PCI-e adaptors. But if you are, 1) designing a co-processor that works closely with the CPU and hence requires cache coherency, or, 2) targeting applications which require minimum latency (e.g., MPI adaptors), then Geneseo ain't it. A more general question to ask is, who would develop a co-processor - "accelerator" - which fails to offer the maximum acceleration? Geneseo is best seen as an effort by Intel to freeze the competition's momentum, giving it time to complete development of CSI and then offer a CSI-based Torrenza.

With the acquisition of ATI, AMD now as the potential to offer its own GPUs to fill those co-processor sockets, ushering in a more practical, commonplace use of CP-GPU based application development. Eventually, the GPUs could be offered as addition cores on the Opteron/Athlon die.

Not surprisingly, Intel has of late been trying to bolster its own in-house digital-graphics talent. And there are the reports (rumours) Intel is interested in acquiring Nvidia. Yet again reacting to AMD.

"It's a bad idea until we copy it, then it's a great idea!"

Given these trends and the Andy Grove, Machiavellian mentality which permeates Intel - who cares who invented it, only who's selling it. After all, copying others is ultimately practical and, maybe for Intel, ultimately a successful strategy.

Postscript
Lest I appear to be too one sided in this article, it should be noted that Intel with its introduction of the Core 2 has regained the lead from AMD at the micro architecture level. Although, AMD appears to have more than enough headroom in the current K8 micro architecture for it to make up the difference.

The upcoming "Barcelona" (K8L) should match Intel's latest-and-greatest but only time will tell. Another problem that has consistently dogged AMD is its apparently permanent position of lagging one generation behind Intel in its manufacturing process, though SOI does offer its own unique advantages – read that Z-RAM. µ

Something interesting is that I never knew AMD was that old????

Carigamers

Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« on: October 16, 2006, 11:53:29 AM »

Offline Nephilim

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 02:31:43 PM »
lol at age of AMD, doh worry i doh think most people know bout AMD pre '95 (with the exception of the PC 31337 :mellow:)
Intel too was a manufacturer of ICs before processors (think they were Integrated Electronics back then), before Intel there was Zilog, if you know who\what a Zilog are\is, then you bad.

As for AMD's lap behind intel i think is a good position see the weaknesses\flaws of your enemy before they happen to you.

lol @ "It's a bad idea until we copy it, then it's a great idea!"  ^_^ thats is Intel self!

and for the record i'm not an AMD fanatic i go for whatever i need at the time (FYI:I own a p4)

Offline Crixx_Creww

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 03:02:33 PM »
ill admit i had no idea amd was that old either, the first time i ever heard of them was with the k6 i believe, cant quite remeber if it was 6 but i think it was p3 era i first heard of them.

Secondly, he goes on to say, lest he seem one sided

omfg that whole thing from right after the fact that amd in its little whiny baby way got the courts to force intel to share their tech with them

WHICH I HAVE BEEN RANTING FOR THE PAST COUPLE YEARS!

its right there in black and white, but none of yu sheepish amdites will ever freely admit it
always some weak excuse.

And then since they are supposed to be sharing, as forced by the courts, if intel even takes a look at what amd is up to, they are accused of copying and blah blah blah

well whatever, i never relented on the fact that intel is king, and as we all can now plainly see
INTEL IS KING.

what was the point of his article btw??

Offline W1nTry

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 03:07:17 PM »
what was the point of his article btw??
To get crixx to rant... nah that'd be too easy :p it's just to highlight the different innovations the underdog has performed despite as said in the article, being almost on the bread line.

Offline Crixx_Creww

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 03:14:08 PM »
i actually have less respect for them knowing now that they have been around for soo long

and still cant get there ish together

i used to think they werent as old and well established as intel, so they needed mommy to make daddy help them out.

But now knowing that they have been around as long as intel and have been playing this whining game for this long, i hate them even more.

If you are a poor business, then accept yur fate and just die!!
Stop dragging they better company down by forcing them to  play nice

and even whilst playing nice
intel is still daddy
pfft

weak amd

Carigamers

Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 03:14:08 PM »

Offline Prowl

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 05:51:28 PM »
Back in the day it was motorola, cirix, amd, intel, Zilog, IBM, SGI, Sun, Sparc ( and others ). IBM and Motorola went powerpc risc ( motorola abandoned development of their 68xxx cisc line that was kicking x86 a$$ then just to drop powerpc recently! ).

Now in '06 Sun and sparc are still here but shadows of their formers selves, Cirix is just making ic's, Motorola embeded contolers and cell phones, SGI all but buss, no idea about Zilog and many others just gone!

only AMd and intel left playing the x86 game today.
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Offline Crixx_Creww

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2006, 06:29:10 PM »
mess with the best

die like the rest

lesson learnt

Offline W1nTry

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2006, 08:23:17 AM »
Crixx if AMD wasn't around we'd still be suffering from heatstroke in a case ala NetBUSS. Plain talk, bad manners :p

Offline Nephilim

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2006, 09:05:14 AM »
Back in the day it was motorola, cirix, amd, intel, Zilog, IBM, SGI, Sun, Sparc ( and others ). IBM and Motorola went powerpc risc ( motorola abandoned development of their 68xxx cisc line that was kicking x86 a$$ then just to drop powerpc recently! ).

Now in '06 Sun and sparc are still here but shadows of their formers selves, Cirix is just making ic's, Motorola embeded contolers and cell phones, SGI all but buss, no idea about Zilog and many others just gone!

only AMd and intel left playing the x86 game today.

zilog still making there old x86 chip they use them mostly in application where you need a microprocessor that is proven to be reliable in stressful situations, and that don't need alot of power, we have them in work in the operations consoles running DOS for ruuning machine code. (production lines)

Offline Crixx_Creww

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2006, 09:18:14 AM »
Crixx if AMD wasn't around we'd still be suffering from heatstroke in a case ala NetBUSS. Plain talk, bad manners :p


Mess with the best, die like the rest

thas all i hadda say bout amd now, cant waiittt for dem to die

but then there will someone else to come along to fill the void of taking credit for all intels hard work

microprocessors have reached the point they are at now because of INTEL not amd
dont forget that

Offline W1nTry

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2006, 10:54:13 AM »
*sighs* crixx dread yuh will never get it oui, whaev. That aside last I checked, if apple didn't close their architecture a LONG time ago (read win3.11) we'd all be running on apple right now which was... umm HELLO IBM/Motorolla aka POWER tech so don't give us that crap about its all intel. Sure intel stepped up to the plate, but I see that more as just being in the right place at the right time.

Offline Prowl

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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2006, 12:35:39 PM »
AMD is so needed to keep intel on their toes, if it wasn't for fx 64 we would not have conroe, we'ed all have presshots!

I respect AMD for this and for one don't want to see them die, they need to stay and slap intel in the face with some sense once in a while! The same goes for Mac, if Apple didn't jump all over microsoft we'll have dos and 640k of ram! ( also thank Commodore and linux! ) Competition is a must in this industry to give us choice, without which we would not have a choice but we'ed be forced to use what ever is there.

BTW I'd much rather be running on a mac interface than this crappy ms garbage os thye want to force on us ( vista! )
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Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2006, 05:05:10 PM »
BTW I'd much rather be running on a mac interface than this crappy ms garbage os thye want to force on us ( vista! )
PREACH IT BROTHER!!!!! LMAO. Dread the so called 'effects' the Vista have PAIL in comparison to MacOSX... sad. How many BILLIONS and YEARS did MS take to accomplish what Apple did in less than 3 and FAR FAR FAR less money???

Carigamers

Re: Lead the dog by the head or by the tail?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2006, 05:05:10 PM »

 


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