Piracy in T&T

[rb]

The thing with local stores that most people forget is that the prices they place on their products is because of a few main things. Firstly you have to remember that they buy the games at the retail price themselves, so thinking that because it costs say 30US abroad it should cost almost the same down here is ridiculous. Depending on amount of stuff they bring in, they are going to be charged for it (shipping,customs and whatever). Then in some cases there's rent to take into consideration and rent can really send prices up. Thats probably why you see games selling for 600 - 700 in the malls. Finally as everyone who did business knows, the main objective is to make profit. You wouldnt buy something for 400$ and sell it for for 425 would you ? Especially in trinidad where people cheap no ass and expect to buy stuff for US price. Thaz the main reason people don't really buy originals. I used to think 450 was ridiculous for an original game but after working in a gaming store I saw how the process works.

[steveunderwood0]

That's just it though man...they don't HAVE to buy at retail.  They choose to do so.  The thing that gets me down here is that some people (my sister in law for one), think that buying from Wal-Mart or from Sam's Club is buying wholesale...but it's not.  There are ways for vendor's of video games to but from places other than what is commecially available.  Sure it involves getting a dealer license and such, but if they have the proper credentials it's possible.  The problem that I would think that you would find as a dealer for video games here is the competition versus pirated games.  If you are continually undercut by pirated copies in relation to price, then you would never be able to order games in any significant quantity, and therefore would not be entitled to the pricebreaks that are inherently built into any supplier's price listing.

[Gambitt]

The thing with local stores that most people forget is that the prices they place on their products is because of a few main things. Firstly you have to remember that they buy the games at the retail price themselves, so thinking that because it costs say 30US abroad it should cost almost the same down here is ridiculous. Depending on amount of stuff they bring in, they are going to be charged for it (shipping,customs and whatever). Then in some cases there's rent to take into consideration and rent can really send prices up. Thats probably why you see games selling for 600 - 700 in the malls. Finally as everyone who did business knows, the main objective is to make profit. You wouldnt buy something for 400$ and sell it for for 425 would you ? Especially in trinidad where people cheap no ass and expect to buy stuff for US price. Thaz the main reason people don't really buy originals. I used to think 450 was ridiculous for an original game but after working in a gaming store I saw how the process works.

Pssst... $30 US at 6.3 = roughly $189 TT (I used 30 because that's the number you picked and is a good average price I'd guess)

Lets say you got shafted and bought the US at 6.4.... that's  $192 TT.

Now as you say 600 - 700 is what it's selling for in the malls.... I'll have to take your word on it I havent been in one of those stores for some long time now. At $600 it still works out to be (600/192) * 100% = 312.5% price increase.

Even if we are talking about a 100% increase of the original $192 tt price to bring it down and pay customs etc (i doubt that it will be this high because you are bringing down quite a few games at once and economies of scale apply to the shipping), you are still talking about another $192 increase by the time it hits the shelves.

This is where I look at you skeptically and say "nah I'll pass back later when I have the cash, thanks anyway".

Now do not get me wrong. I understand that $30 US is a low (retail) price for some games, especially new games. But as I'm sure you'll agree it's not very common to see even a oldass game selling for anything close to $192tt in those stores. Plus as Steve mentioned, saying "well that's the price up there" is also pretty bogus... that's the retail price, people buying in quantity can usually work up a relationship with their supplier. The mistake I think steve has made is to think that you would really need to buy hundreds of copies of the same game. I figure that you could probably work out a "better price" for a handful of copies since you are ordering a dozen titles at once.

I even concede your point that they have to pay rent. But you know what, so what? Selling one copy of a game for $192 profit is great, but how many people are going to shell out $700 for a game? I for one would rather wait months for "aunty" to come down and I'll pay her cost plus any tax that she gets shafted with, for the original. Now if they were selling it for $300 and I really really liked the game I might cough up the cash. Or if they were selling it for $250, which might only represent a very small mark up on their part, I might buy two games if I happened to win a little something in play whe.

But the thing is that they'd be making some money off my head. And a little money times several purchases in a good gaming year, times however many customers who coming to buy by you because you have original games for low prices and we doh have to wait months for "aunty" and it will start to add up. Right now they not making a cent off my head, and probably never will. So how is that big mark up helping them?

I never work for one of them stores, but that's how the process works in any store. If the price you asking for is so high, yeah you might make hundreds of dollars off of one sale, but that's probably the only sale you going to make for the day. Sell for a smaller mark up and you make less per sale but you make more sales. Das why all them local supermarkets was kicking a fuss when pricemart opened.

[BeoBear]

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PREAAACH IT BREDDA HOI!!!!!! SAY DE WORDAH...YESAH...

same couple of points i wanted to make... it really does not translate to 600-700 dollars...they are trying to get a huuuge profit.


didnt we have this discussion a while ago tho?

[vivman1107]

Ok. We have definitely showed that is profit that dem stores after. What I would like to know is if it is commercially viable for someone to open a games store (something like Electronics Boutique in the US) for new, original games. I somehow doubt that it is, though, just because of the availability of pirated games. Here is another scenario. Let's say that GATT HQ (or other locations too) offered a service to ship new, original games here using a personal skybox. They charge a small annual membership fee like a video club. Then, any games a guy want to order can be ordered through Amazon.com or wherever and shipped here. No extra charges besides the shipping and customs to get here. Keep in mind that you could order greatest hits or games on sale for the going price online. Cash can be collected upfront and guys who don't have credit cards could still get games. How many people would honestly go for something like that rather than buy pirated games?

[Qloxx]

You would be supprised i do it for special customers in the store where i work and sometmes it's too much to handle. Think of it not everyone likes copy games i know a good many people who only buy originals, because look you pay between $600-$1200 to mod your system then you buy copy games for $20-$40 cheap huh look at all the money yoy save,NOT.
If the person modding ypur system dont know a capacitor from a resistor your a$$ will end up having to either change youl lense (at least $800) or the board (you doh even want to know D price on that) or just start over and buy a new system. Not to mention that certain big name shops does just take your new board and give you a sh!+* old modle one and still charge you full price an leh we doh talk about the cheap a$$ media dey does use to burn dey games on that guranteed to f#@* your system up even if you have a good mod.

[Arcmanov]

^^^ co-sign.

[Saxito Pau]

I realise that this Piracy thread has been more or less about pirated games thus far, but piracy is piracy. windows software included.

I was JUST awakened by my phone and was THRASHED over the phone for 10 minutes (at least) by a client for using a bootleg version of windows on a system i recently upgraded for them.

The wife got the "You may be a victimof counterfiet software piracy" on her screen and called me livid.

I get the I should've told them, blah blah blah, who else tied to her I installed pirate windows on (a major real estate company, her place of work), we spend so much money (about $3800 total in parts + labour to give them an socket 939 upgrade, which her husband wanted) and want to get itemised detials of the cost of EVERY item I buy plus cost of labout PLUS invoice for EACH item I buy now. Oh, she gonna tell her husband when he arrives later this evening.

I never parry and block like this before.

Explaining to her that this was the "norm" proved futile. I just hope her husband not gonna take me thru a round 2, especially as 1. when I got the old computer to upgrade, THAT computer was using a pirate copy as well (but I never got a chance to tell her that),a nd 2. HE knew that I was using a "copy" of windows to start with!!

A case like this, to begin with you'd probably nver expect THIS to happen. I actually stand to lose a few clients over this! DAMN!

All this because she could not watch  streaming video on www.bennyhinn.org using Windows Media player!! (kept giving an unknown error)

The headache I went to sleep at 5pm to get rid of just come back..... sigh...

I'm sorry, Microsoft. I'll NEVER pirate another copy of windows again!!

*stands in a corner of room, sitting on a stool, facing the wall with a "software pirate" cap on his head; head hung down in total shame and embarrasment*

EDIT: did I mention that it's a CHRISTIAN family i was dealing with?

[Spazosaurus]

HAHAHA i must laugh at the last part about them being christian. What world are you REALLY living in? Anyway, I wont go further on that subject.

How can she quarrel when she gave you the machine with a pirated copy of Windows in the first place? Is she nucking futs? I would have cussed that. Serious. I disappointed you didnt tell her that u got the machine pirated. Hmmmmm. I wish i had she to deal with.

[Saxito Pau]

The answer to your question is that she apparently didn't know her husband was using a bootleg windows... the bootleg CD STILL in the CD storage case built into the case. that's how I got it when I had to scrap it for parts to use in their current system.

Also keep in mind that the husband call all the shots outright.

Given that the old computer is an HP Pavilion x938.. I guess we can assume that it HAD legal windows at some point.

But I done see that this gonna cost me at least $650 to save face: OEM XP Home in my MC. I go hear what the husband have to say tomorrow.

[TriniXaeno]

hhahahha

That is precisely the point.

They aim to make Pirated XP as problematic as possible and you cannot blame them.

It is only going to get worse.

At the very least, roll out legit XP. Force it down their throat.

Then try to go open source/free on everything else.

[BeoBear]

looooooooooools , bennyhinny streaming tv.....

Sax....just roll up in there with a suit and a bible in your hand , smack the pc and say "Pirated devil! plauge this computer no mooooooreaaaaah...." turn on your heel and walk out.

Damn that sucks man..why she makin such a big fuss......install a good copy of windows dred..and charge them 2x the amount...

[Synchronomyst]

I'd tell her to go to hell to be quite honest.

I mean...we'll be truthful. Pirating software is illegal (note: I didn't say 'wrong') but if she has qualms with you and your business practices it's only simple courtesy that she should talk to you like a human being and allow you to apologise, inform her that she has suffered no tangible loss (and in turn, you have not received any gain) and the reason why you chose that route rather than, obviously, incurring a higher cost for her and not speak down at you like some common dog because she can't see some showboating evangelist. But I suppose she speaks in the the realm of her general ignorance of the subject at hand. She sounds like she couldn't tell RAM from a goat. If that's not possible... I'd inform her...after I gave her the copy of windows that she requested, for the sake of maintaing professionalism, that you can no longer do business with her.

Because to be honest? Who the hell is she going to tell? No one is going to follow up a minor case of piracy like this. Microsoft is not the RIAA and it does not go after individuals with the threat of litigation over something so insignificant. You may receive one or two call from whatever organisation deals with these sort of things at most. And that in itself is entirely unlikely.

[Saxito Pau]

Update to this case:

Well the call from the husband did eventually come. Summary of conversation:
He hear about all my 'horrible' deeds
It seems that while he 'sympathises' with me, he's jsut riding the waves his wife has created to save his own skin. (I guess it is natural: he DID marry her) He wants to BUY the copy of windows himself, have me install it and than pass the charge over to me. Like i go pay retail price for original?

The conversation get cut short due to a bmobile ish connection, so I have to talk to him tomorrow

I have also talked to at least 5 clients and 2 friends concerning this. printing/emailing this section of the thread  for their reading pleasure.

The general census I received is this:

• Yes I used bootleg software on her computer
• I gonna give them an itemised, serialised list of parts used and show them the costs of importing vs buying the parts locally. ( To think I saved these people at least $1000 in parts by importing!!)
• Yes, I should have alerted them to the fact that I was gonna use bottleg
• No, I should NOT pay for their copy of windows XP, especially as the husband (unknown to the wife) was using bootleg XP any way. I gonna tell this to the husband as my final stand, and then depending on his response, I'll make that known to the wife  (even if it means that they go have marital issues after... but then that really isn't my business, is it?)
• In future, give the client the choice upfront of paying the extra $700+ for original windows (and $1200+ for office 2003) or use bootleg or better yet, take Baego's earlier advice. or just tell 'em, "Buy a Dell or something."

y'all agree?

Feedback again, please

[Synchronomyst]

Point number 2. Point number 5. And if push comes to shove...point number 4. But avoid that if you can. Too confrontational.

[vivman1107]

I think that it should be made clear that a bootleg is going to be used and the option to pay the extra money to get a legit copy should be given. I think if you mention the price of XP to a potential client, they will not believe that it costs that much and most people will not want to pay for it. I am just wondering about the upgrade path for the PC. Some PC's can't even upgrade to XP, if you are using the Home version.

[BeoBear]

I say if they go down the ignorant road..drop point 4, and watch the marriage crumble.

But what you have is a good plan....but im sure you'll be met with all forms of resistance from the wife...she does after all watch benny hinn.

But like Synchronomyst say, who really going to come after you? Bill Gates probly doesnt even know where Trinidad is...

[Trinitus]

You would be supprised i do it for special customers in the store where i work and sometmes it's too much to handle. Think of it not everyone likes copy games i know a good many people who only buy originals, because look you pay between $600-$1200 to mod your system then you buy copy games for $20-$40 cheap huh look at all the money yoy save,NOT.
If the person modding ypur system dont know a capacitor from a resistor your a$$ will end up having to either change youl lense (at least $800) or the board (you doh even want to know D price on that) or just start over and buy a new system. Not to mention that certain big name shops does just take your new board and give you a sh!+* old modle one and still charge you full price an leh we doh talk about the cheap a$$ media dey does use to burn dey games on that guranteed to f#@* your system up even if you have a good mod.

But nontheless persons still take the chance and enjoy their games dont they? From an ethical point piracy is wrong, but from a "mom-have-to-spend-money-on-school-fees-pay-de-bills-still-in-school-money-short-enough-to-buy-uwi-doubles" stand point, ppl may not be entirely consequentialistically wrong.

[steveunderwood0]

My recommendation would be this.  Don't let them buy a copy of XP, u do it...and get the cheapest version you can find (sp1).  Install it on their p.c.  Suck it up and move on.

[Gambitt]

Uh Bill gates does know where T&T is.

Your plan sounds all very nice and reasonable in the face of adversity.

Just a pair of questions to clarify:
1) The customers knew that you intended to cannibalise the old PC for items to use, thereby reducing the price, right?
2) You used the exact same copy of windows and the SN that was in the old PC right?

Cause if the answer to both is yes, then you do not have a problem.

You had no way of knowing, short of calling up MS if it was a legitamate copy of windows unless the owners told you that it was not legit so them pirating windows for so many years had nothing to do with you, and the current piracy was an honest mistake on your part based on the CD  and SN you found in their old computer, if it is a pirate version, then they are resonsible for having an illegal copy of windows in the first place.


Personally the temptation to tell the dumb bitch that she's been sinning for the past however many years, whether knowingly or unknowingly would be overwhelming. Then I'd pull out the Old Testament and hit her with it and say "THOU SHALT NOT STEAL BIATCH! You have have broken the commandments, knowingly or unknowingly, now I have to melt down the golden statue of the cow and break a couple tablets on the ground... dammit where'd I put those two asprins?"

Then start beating them on the head with the bible and screaming "Jesus pwns you, biatches! By the way, Benny Hinn hates people who steal... unless it's millions of dollars so he can drive big fancy cars and buy craploads of hair care products."

Either that or just tell her to "F off, and please tell your husband to grow enough of a pair to tell you when he's responsible for doing something wrong". I do not go in for the act reasonable in the face of adversity routine for very long.