Author Topic: Hardware Questions (n00b stuff) (Read 3843 times)

Trinitus · « **on:** January 10, 2006, 02:18:34 PM »

Ok i was on newegg.com and I was drooling over the latest and greatest of video cards. I noticed that the names of some of the card companies varied eg. Sapphire, Roseville, MSI etc. But some of them carry the same "Radeon" name, what i want to know is that what is the purpose of this BRAND naming. The company name that is.

Carigamers · « **on:** January 10, 2006, 02:18:34 PM »

W1nTry · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2006, 04:13:27 PM »

You're right it is a noob question

doh study it man, we were all n00bs at one point... and some still are... *mumbles something bout salt crackers :p* basically its like having a different branded PC. You know HP, Gateway, Dell, etc don't make ALL of their hardware just as Intel and AMD don't make all theirs either. Nvidia themselves do NOT make graphics cards (save for engineering samples) and motherboards. Instead they make the chips that power them. Same with ATI save ATI actually makes a few of their own like the All-In-Wonder line. Sapphire is a video/mobo manufacturer that use ATI reference design (or not) and make cards based around the ATI graphics processor. Just like Dell will make computer systems built around the Intel platform, same way a roti shop go make a chicken piper using chief brand curry powder. The real thing is to fish out the good manufacturers from the not so good ones. Sapphire is the largest ATI video card maker or was it Powercolor... either way do ur research on ratings, or should I say customer ratings on products to see which manu makes the best cards based on the ATI/Nvidia chips.

Czar · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2006, 05:39:20 PM »

To be quite honest, any brand you choose should be just fine...they all do a pretty decent job with their implementations of the various designs. However, if you looking for the brand name...Sapphire is at the top, or near the top, of the ATI list. For the nVidia camp, it's a lil tougher to single out...but my picks are eVGA and BFG.

TrinireturnofGamez · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2006, 06:33:58 PM »

Basically each different company just produces ATI designated circuit boards and drops an ATI gpu on it , buys compatible RAM and sticks it in... Usually these different companies make cards cheaper than ATI.. sapphire is in russia , others are based in China or other far east nations , while ATI is in canada, labour costs are astronomically higher in a 1st world nation like canada.... i'm sure other things too allow those other companies to make cheaper cards..
The brand DOES play a part in the quality of a card, a high end card eg. 6800 ultra , x1800xt you needn't worry about the brand too much as ATI and nvidia has specific specs for these cards that manufacturers HAVE to meet or not be able to get GPU's from the company .. But lower end cards give reason to worry a bit , i hear many horror stories and see cards frying , capacitors busting , slow speeds due to ram that is HALF the speed that the reference ATI/Nvidia card has ... etc...
The better the company, the more you can trust their product, eg. i'd buy an Asus over a Chaintech or rosewill if i can't get solid specs of everything on the card, and if the card is a cheaper model eg. 6200 .

TriniXaeno · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2006, 07:34:32 PM »

Great replies so far.

I will add a few other points to consider when choosing brand.

RMA.

These three little letters can be your best friend and worst nightmare. They refer to the process of returning your product to the manufacturer for a replacement.

Be sure to consider the policies and reliability of the brand you choose in this regard.

We have purchased some Celestica brand ATI cards in the past and never got the warranty honored when they failed within a few months of purchase. Still waiting up to this day (well over a year after the death of the cards)

On the other side, we had a BFG 5900 card die on a customer, sent it back for replacement and got a brand new card in return within record time. Very impressive.

This keeps BFG on top of my pick list. 10 Points for RMA.

Another issue between brands is noise. Some of these cards come with grossly inefficient or overzealous cooling solutions that produce sounds more suitable for a car engine. A low buzz or even a high pitch whine can make your computer a lot less pleasant. Especially if it sits on top of your desk.

Not only that, when the fans stop spinning which they will inevitably do, you are left with an overheating component in your PC.

Some brands go the extra distance in curbing this problem by offering totally silent cards. Using innovative heat pipe cooling instead of traditional fans. Gigabyte is one such supplier. This keeps them at the top of my list also.

Carigamers · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2006, 07:34:32 PM »

Beomagi · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2006, 02:40:17 AM »

Things to look for are features that they may provide. eg as baego said, service. Some do have outstanding cooling - old leadteks were known for it. Some cardmakers push the clocks farther, making their cards slightly better performers - sometimes, it's very much worth it - e.g. xfx's 6800GS which has more than a mediocre overclock.

game/software packages. I got prince of persia sands of time and pandora tomorrow with my leadteks. Asus sometimes gives a REALLY good bundle with 3 games and other software in a few previous top cards. One 7800GT in particular caught my attention last year november, as it was $320, but shipped with almost $100 is current games.

Some companies do try weird crap sometimes - asus is an example. They have several versions of the 6800 gamer edition - their v9999 cards. One was an ultra pcb/memory with vanilla chip - now this had the potential to be unlocked, and thus give a 6800gt class chip on 6800ultra memory, which would have been great if the price was. Then they made the opposite - a 6800ultra chip on 700MHz memory pcb - and buyers never knew what hit them.

If you're looking at ati some cards really stand out in particular.
at $100, there's probably the best bang/buck card around.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127176
MSI's x800, a 12 piper 256bit memory interface card, that duked it out with the 6800vanilla
...
Before I get ahead of myself, If you're interested in a card, what's your budget?

Trinitus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:28:47 PM »

Cyah really buy the cards now so i just want to find out b4 i ready to buy, but another thing i wanted to find out ( n00b ? again) regarding the newer cards like the x800 7800gt and blah blah blah....how much of a price drop can bee seen in the next 9 to 12 months from now? Thats more or less when ill be ready to build my gaming rig.

Beomagi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:37:49 PM »

The x800 has dropped most of it's value already. If it sells out, it's gone - keep in mind that the x1300 through x1600xt dont compare to it in power - you'll have to look at nvidia should you wish to have equivalent power, but something a bit less in price and power than a 6800gs.

The 7800gt is available for $280, and comes with quake4 - a $40 value, making this 7800GT a stock $240.

I Think prices would fall as low as to $200 in one year - but do note that 6800GT's are still $250-$300.

This is what i've noticed over the years - The highest end cards, retain their price. The runner ups, fall quickly, but the rate falls when it hits the $200 range.

In 9-12 months, you'll have completly new picks - trust me

always good to keep up to date though.

Trinitus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2006, 07:38:16 AM »

Ok another n00b question.... Cooling....... whats the best stuff to cool down a PC esp when yuh overclock it....what i mean is what products are needed, i kinda get some sketchy stuuf on some sites. All dem tube things i see in some pics how do they work?, and where can cases be bought with these stuff already built in?

Beomagi · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2006, 09:57:56 AM »

order of overclocking for constant runtimes (no LN2):
air : best commercial - zalman 9500, thermalright xp-120, coolermaster hyper 6
chilled air
water : asetek kits, coolermaster aquagate mini (bottom rung, but great solution)
chilled water
peltier+water - usuallly home made
phase - best commercial - Vapochill lightspeed

when you see tubes, it's usually water.
In a standard heatsink, sink takes heat from the cpu, and air passes through it to take heat from that.

In water, it's the same thing really - that block is sealed, tube for pushing water in, and tube for water out.

Phase is actually best done home made. A cascade, like what record setters use, is a chain of phase change machines, one to cool the other. Phase is just the same thing as an air conditioner - except instead of chilling air, it chills a small metal plate for the cpu.

A peltier relies on the thermoelectric effect. You have different semiconductors and if one junction of contact is a different temperature thatn the other, you have elecrticity. The opposite occurs as well - passing current through a peltier or thermoelectric cooler heats one side, and cools the other. By cooling the hot side, you can get the cold side even cooler. It usually just looks like a flat square, with a couple of wire leads. You CAN cool it with air, but today, the heat generation is way to high for good peltier on air cooling.

Narcissus · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2006, 12:52:45 PM »

ok i have my n00b question...
i plan on building an SLI system this year because of the upgradeability options...
but if runnin 2 cards don't give give u double the memory what are the real benefits of runnin 2 gfx cards in SLI mode?

Trinitus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2006, 01:01:22 PM »

I cyah help yuh with dat nah, I dunno what SLI even is, all i know , graphic cards with plenty letters mean dey good

, well lets read what u other guys have posted up now.

Narcissus · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:28:49 PM »

oh another question...there are certain gfx cards that are certified by the makers of a mobo...but if i wanted to use another card from outside that group, for say one wit better memory, it would still work right?

Czar · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2006, 04:23:46 PM »

Quote from: Narcissus on January 15, 2006, 12:52:45 PM

ok i have my n00b question...
i plan on building an SLI system this year because of the upgradeability options...
but if runnin 2 cards don't give give u double the memory what are the real benefits of runnin 2 gfx cards in SLI mode?

Ok, first of all, you're mixin some things up...don't think of it in terms of double the memory...cos technically, you do get double the memory...128 + 128 = 256 = double...

Here's the catch with SLI & CrossFire...double the graphics cards, doesn't equate to double the framerates...most, not all, games will show an improvement...sometimes as little as 10%, sometimes as large as 50%, some even more...but to get a 100% improvement is an unrealistic expectation. More than likely, you will se an improvement in framerates...but just don't expect them to blow sky high...

Here's something that might interest you...I also have done like you and bought an SLI-ready mobo...the DFI LanParty Ultra-D...with the thought that I can possibly do SLI...however, something that both you and I need to consider is the practicality of it...i.e. will it just be better to get a single next-gen card (eg. 8800GT - or whatever they will call it), or get that second card and do the SLI...thus far, it has been a case that it works out better to get the single next-gen card...but, that doesn't mean that you should ditch the SLI-ready mobo...cos at least you have the option of going SLI, should you want to...who knows...maybe yuh might get lucky and win a second gfx card, or an extra nice relative donates one to you...

Quote from: Narcissus on January 15, 2006, 02:28:49 PM

oh another question...there are certain gfx cards that are certified by the makers of a mobo...but if i wanted to use another card from outside that group, for say one wit better memory, it would still work right?

I've never heard of this "gfx card being certified by a mobo manufacturer"....can you provide a link so I can have a look? I'm thinking that the mobo manufacturer also makes gfx cards and is "certifying" that only their gfx cards work on the mobo...jus a way to chain you up into buying everything from them...the reality of the situation is that any gfx card should work on any mobo...notice the keyword there...should.

Beomagi · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2006, 04:55:11 PM »

Quote from: Narcissus on January 15, 2006, 12:52:45 PM

ok i have my n00b question...
i plan on building an SLI system this year because of the upgradeability options...
but if runnin 2 cards don't give give u double the memory what are the real benefits of runnin 2 gfx cards in SLI mode?

The texture memory HAS to be copied onto both cards. so 2 cards with x MB equates to only x MB for textures, lightmaps and such. If they tried using the bandwidth to move around memory from one card to the other when needed, they'd lose performance from latency.

let's look at nvidia's rendering techniques
1. Alternate frame rendering - one card renders a frame, while it's being dumped to screen, the other has begun working on the other. This is usually the best you can hope for - first employed commercially to my knowledge with the ati expert card. With this, the necessary bandwidth of the card is halved. The rate of calculation necessary for geometry is halved.

2. Split frame rendering - a card renders a portion of the screen, other renders the rest. depending on which card finished the last frame first, the split for that card increases for the next frame. This is imperfect. Some games ended up moving the split all the way down so one card did nothing - a bug. Now on a lot of games this was fixed, but you'll find more unheard-of games to suffer problems with this method. You effectively split bandwidth here, fill rate too somewhat. But both cards still have to go through all the geometry of the scene. Thus, IF the geometry is the limiting factor, you can expect little or no gain here.

3. ATI uses both of these, and another called scissors mode - this is just a checkerboard-like manner of split frame rendering, and falters under the same circumstances, though an earlier bug problem was causing it to fail on their 12 pipe gto as well.

A lot of the time, for people planning sli, i'd usully tell them to wait a little longer and get a card the next step up for 50% more. There's no worry about if the rendering mode is going to work for a game, or if my SLI gains are going to be low or nonexistant - and you do save on electricity. With the pci-e slot supplying 75 watts, any card with a molex connector is going to draw more.

There are a couple cases where Gigabye released their 3D1, and certified their own motherboards as the only ones able to run it - it's just sli with window dressing. you may as well buy real sli cards.

Narcissus · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2006, 06:03:56 PM »

oh here's the link for the mobo i'm taklin abt
http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=15&model=375&l1=3&l2=15&l3=148
and i was readin some reviews on the cards at newegg and they were sayin that the asus cards weren't satisfactory and outta the set of 6600GT's athe albatron was the best.

Trinitus · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2006, 11:51:08 AM »

Wel this is one serious race between the 2 companies, is there any chance of any new companies able to step up to the challenge? I think i remembered one coming out of thailand....

Czar · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2006, 01:05:57 PM »

Funny that they've only certified 6600's on the board...but in any event...I still think that any card should work with it. That's a pretty popular board and Asus is a well known brand. I know quite a few people with that board and a card that's not on that list...don't ever recall them complaining.

It's not likely that anyone can punch into the gfx market right about now and be a significant player. The entry costs are pretty high and the pace is just brutal...every 6months (sometimes less!) they unleash a new product cycle...it's tough keeping up with that kinda pace unless you been in the game before...

There are however, a couple other companies trying their hand, but nowhere near as successful as nVidia and ATI...namely, Matrox and XGI...there's another that begins with P, but the name escapes me now...