T&T Government: Discussion on their actions and related matters

[SideSwipe]

I decided to start a more all-encompassing thread than the others already existing, to discuss the various actions taken by the government. At the moment, there are two rather scary things happening.


(1)
For one, we seem to be engaging on a path of mass hangings. The problem in this is that the government seems to be so dead set on merely looking like they're doing something about crime, that they appear willing to defy the rulings of the Privy Council, and also hang those who have been on death row for over 5 years. For the record, a prisoner held on death row for over 5 years is considered to be under inhumane conditions and can no longer be hung.

Now a complication of this for me is that I do not agree with the death penalty. I say it is better to let them rot in prison all the rest of their lives, thinking about what they did and how they lost their chance at a life by killing. I say it is a far greater punishment than kill them and that's that. However, more than that...death by hanging is quite frankly in itself an inhumane method of killing. It is not uncommon to not die upon release of the trap door. Why aren't we using lethal injection instead?

At the end of the day however, this is just my opinion on the death penalty itself, which is not the matter at hand right now. Does the government want to create an international fiasco? It's already got one with the Panday issue. It's been all over the international press, and the UNC is writing to international bodies regarding the entire thing. Not to mention the lack of action on Bakr and now his name has been called in a Florida court of law. Don't we have enough scandals on our hands as it is? This on top of the fact that the death penalty at the end of the day doesn't even deter criminals. I agree with the guy on the news tonight who pointed out that the last thing a person about to kill does is consider the punishment. Talk about trying to divert attention.


(2)
The government wants to increase the budget for the 2004/2005 fiscal year by $3 Billion. Apparently gas prices are good so they say it can be afforded. I have two things to say to this. One, what about saving up for a rainy day? Put it in a fund, don't spend it! We were in a mess during the 80's because of runaway spending during the 70's. Do they not learn from their mistakes? Two, we already have a massive budget of something like $28 Billion. Not a red cent seems to be going to any real use. Why do they need another $3 Billion?


That's all I have to say for now.

[Shogun]

i hate my government

[TriniXaeno]

very well thought out response there Shogun. lol

[TrinireturnofGamez]

  how about the fact that since  i was in primary school i hear people saying 'AT&T coming down, TSTT buss ! ' and have yet to see it happen ? or the ' water for all' promise ? or maybe the fact that the hospitals are the prime liming spot for cockroaches  and rats ?

[wrathful]

what sideswipe says is rather moving and as far as i can tell is also very true. but i think part of the reason for the death sentence is the fact that there just isn't enough sapce in our prisons to accomodate all the death row prisoners!! according to recent reports ALL the prisons are overcrowded! what else should government do?
 

[orginalvexman]

side swipe is watching the death penalty with only one eye open
side swipe is only watching it hink that people areafraid of jail what about those people who jail has become like a home to them they living it good in there  and we the tax payers have to allow them  i have know some men saying they rather go to jail than live out here and if u havnt  notice murder ha s been quiet lately since they say the hang man back even laventilll get quiet  the reality of the situation is the nation needs a strick hand  to show the criminals we not taking this anymore people have to live there lives in fear always on alert for kidnapper( people who dont want u to become rich legally)
i support the hanging  cause if it will free up the jail and put back the fear into going to jail

[TrinireturnofGamez]

 there is already plenty fear of going to jail , that anyone who goes in a virgin comes out a... changed man .
   More fear won't help, hangings are just another diversion away from the government's impotence and stupidity  , like every gulf war is a  distraction away from a flailing american economy .  Though the government doesn't have to think hard to fool  most of the population, seeing that most of us are semi illiterate due to a 'quality primary school education' .

[TriniXaeno]

Well anything to help the crime situation is welcome at this stage.

Remove tariffs on security equipment.

Increase wages for the protective services.

I'm against hanging criminals. A better plan would be to implement "shoot to kill" death squads for rapid response to violent crimes.

Save us the time and effort of putting them through court, keepin' em in jail for a couple years and then wasting good rope around their knecks.

That would work beautifully if corruption and non performance wasn't so rampant in the protective services.

Vigilantism maybe the next best thing.

As for increasing the budget, maybe they are going to have a surplus even beyond the extra 3 billion they plan to spend. If they got an increase in income by 5 billion, they could be looking to spend 3 and save 2.

Any word on that?

[SideSwipe]

Hangings: I wouldn't be so sure about the death penalty having anything to do with less murders. In fact, you'll find that most countries with no death penalty have very low crime rates - the reason being that they have sufficient security systems and employment in place that less people turn to the life of crime. If you think about it really, you could administer the death penalty or put them in jail for life...it won't make a difference. When someone is about to kill, the potential punishment really isn't being considered. I may be against the death penalty, but not for the same reasons as many others, as outlined in my above post.

I'm against hangings - lethal injection should be done instead. But we should have no need to be administering the death penalty in the first place. That we have so many people on death row and a runaway crime rate has little to do with the punishment and many to do with the failure of our society. People need to be placed in a lifestyle that does not make them turn to crime, and they need to be properly educated. When was the last time you heard of a killer coming out of a home in Westmoorings or Goodwood Gardens? But how many out of places like Laventille? And what about middle ground areas like say Diego Martin or Chaguanas? The truth is that these fellas who go around killing don't usually have really solid employment, and the children who end up not getting a proper education and suffering in some truly broken down homes often turning to crime as "part of the norm" in their way of life. No punishment will change that, only infrastructure changes to ensure this lifestyle doesn't continue.

Now Baego's post mentioned death squads. You know, I would really hate for it to come to that. However, the way things have been going...it may be only a matter of time before someone starts hiring some hitmen to go around and knock out the criminals. Where the police service fails, at some point the citizens will take matters into their own hands. It will be a sad day for our country, but perhaps at the end of it all we will no longer be targets. But at what cost? The social and economic backlash will be horrific. Socially, there would be a mindset to just not bother with the police and take matters into your own hands. Economically, our reputation will be soured and international corporations may think twice about investing their money here.

That is another thing with the recent hanging spree our government wants to engage in. In their haste, overlooking Pitman's appeals, wanting to hang everyone even after 5 years on death row despite Privy Council rulings...has attracted the attention of the British parliment. We all want the world to recognise us...but not in this way. This could easily become a stain on our image that will last for years to come, complete with the economic and social backlash that goes with it. We're not a giant of a country like the US. We can't afford to be sending these kinds of signals out.

Now, Baego also mentioned this:

As for increasing the budget, maybe they are going to have a surplus even beyond the extra 3 billion they plan to spend. If they got an increase in income by 5 billion, they could be looking to spend 3 and save 2.

That may be the case...however. We are currently with a massive budget as it stands. $28 billion...now with the increase it's $31 billion. If the money were being put to use, I may be singing a different tune...but what do we have to show for the $28 billion? Not a thing. Perhaps 10 or 15 billion...where has the rest gone? So why do we need the additional money? Even if we have 5 billion, put it all in a fund. A record size budget has already been set, let's see some results from it before you want to add more to it. It really worries me where we will be when the current gas boom we're in ends. We will have spent billions into ghost projects, billions that could have been set aside to buffer the effect of the inevitable end to the gas boom. Billions that could have been used to expand our industries so we don't rely on just gas to survive. We should not need additional money in such an already massive budget unless we can see that it is going to good use and they are in fact running short of what they allocated.

If we're not careful, we're in for one hell of a time. It truly disappoints me, because with our economy and our population size, we should be having one of the highest standards of living in the hemisphere.

[TrinireturnofGamez]

 i'm all for vigilantee groups ,   men calling themselves Super nigga and ScorpionRas jumping off the  top of the twin towers , swinging on ropes made of  radioactive dreadlocks , fighting criminals with big stone and channa   .   
     The government is just throwing money at their problems without much thought to the future (as usual)  and expecting them to be solved , also it helps for their propganda if they can draw  pretty graphs to show how much more was spent in X sector under Y administration ......

[orginalvexman]

 side swipe bad calling in calling places like west morrings and them cause we all know if killers come from there we wont know look at when schools go to war tranquil vs  st mary's who get a bad stained tranquil i sure it have killers in west morings or maybe they themselves might be the ringleaders of allthe crime in the country

  and with the  5 billion all i can say is not everybody is a ble to handle the mantle of power

[SideSwipe]

side swipe bad calling in calling places like west morrings and them cause we all know if killers come from there we wont know look at when schools go to war tranquil vs st mary's who get a bad stained tranquil i sure it have killers in west morings or maybe they themselves might be the ringleaders of allthe crime in the country

 and with the 5 billion all i can say is not everybody is a ble to handle the mantle of power

When I pulled places like Westmoorings, I never intended it in such a way as to say criminals never come out of those places. I am saying when was the last time we heard of a killer coming out of there. That is, I am trying to draw a reference between the way children are raised in some communities as opposed to others. You don't see people coming out slinging guns and shooting at each other in the middle of Westmoorings. You do in Laventille. Why? Well I can offer a lot of explanations, ranging from the number of broken homes to the poverty level to the differing outside influences in each community.

In that respect, it is not a bad call in the least to compare these two communities given the point I am arguing. They represent completely opposite ends of the Trinidad society and by comparing the two, we can see the differences and begin to understand why criminals (generally) tend to come out of one area rather than the other. It is a fundamental in the study of society that the kind of home one grows up in influences the kind of person one turns out to be. In my original post, I was tying this point in to the case of our current crime levels. If measures are taken to ensure that areas like Laventille do not remain in poverty, measures are taken to ensure that the youth grow up not being influenced by violence and the easy road, we would see a decline in the amount of crime we as a society have to deal with.

Take a cross section of how many broken homes are in each. Take a cross section of how many live in poverty and are quite literally taught that they have to take what they need. Take a cross section of how many finish their education. I believe you will find this last point in particular has a huge influence.

You make an assumption as to where the ring leaders are from. I do not make an assumption on where the ones who carry out the violent crimes are from. Facts to back up my point can be found in everything from police records to the daily newspaper. This is not to say the ring leaders may not be from upscale neighbourhoods, but that they are is an assumption. Even if they are however, remember we are speaking generally. A criminal can come out of Westmoorings as easily as a humanitarian can come out of Laventille.

I fail to see what you mean by when the schools go to war, who get the bad stains. Put it this way - if two schools are known to get into fights with each other, the one who gets the more tarnished reputation is the one who carries out the more violent acts, or the one that instigates the conflicts.

There is a reason why St. Mary's will come out with the better reputation. Take a look at a cross section of each school's population. Look at the environment they come out from. You will find a stark difference. Yes, there are representitives across the board from both schools, but look at which has the greater number of students prone to create a "war" between the schools. Therefore, take into consideration now how many of the conflicts may have been started by school A vs school B, or which of the schools involved take the more violent route. Also take into consideration how many other incidents each school may have been involved with in the past, and you will see why in a clash between Tranquil and Saints, Tranquil will get the bad rep.


There is a reason why some neighbourhoods, schools, etc would be more prone to churning out violent criminals than others. The problem is that most people don't care to look at the reason why and try to address these root problems. It is because of these root problems that our society is in the state it is today.

[Mugsy]

sideswipe has a good point but i dont entirely agree with it for the following reasons.

1. Hanging is not meant as a means of punishment in this case but a means of deterrance from crime.
It may not be correct but so far as the government has yet to find a more appropriate means of dealing with crime i think we should wait before we make comments.

2. The privy council is made up of a bunch of old men who decide what is best for a country without knowing what the hell is actually happening around them.""For the record, a prisoner held on death row for over 5 years is considered to be under inhumane conditions and can no longer be hung.""" That is utter rubbish. Killing innocent people is inhumane. the prisoners should be thankful that they actually got an extra five years after murdering innocent people to think about what they did.

and by the way sideswipe i'm not sure where u got your information from but they are wrong. The current statistics show that countries that uphold capital punishment has almost 36% less violent crimes than countries that dont.

[SideSwipe]

In regards to capital punishment being a deterrence, not a punishment, I can't agree. Whether it is that the killer will get the death penalty or many years in jail, either possible sentence should be enough of a deterrence. I firmly believe that someone who has killed another, at least in the vast majority of cases, did not think about the possible consequences of the murder. In that light, I can't see how capital punishment - or any other punishment - serves as a deterrence.

I will be willing to give the government a chance to prove itself in that this measure would reduce crime, but there are things that make this very hard to do. The rush to execute every prisoner on death row despite the privy council rulings and the now infamous case of Lester Pittman, where the man was to be sent to the gallows with an outstanding appeal go to prove very much that this is little more than a knee jerk reaction rather than an actual plan to deal with crime. An actual plan to deal with crime would be a holistic approach dealing with everything from the positioning of police in crime prone areas to dealing witht he root issues in locales that are known for churning out the criminal element.

In regards to the Privy Council and the ruling about a 5 year limit on death row, I agree with you. However, T&T's highest court of appeal is the Privy Council, and we are bound to follow their rulings. If the government wishes to defy the rulings of the Privy Council, they are effectively looking to put a stain on our reputation. The last thing any of us needs is for our country to be seen as a nation that defies the international law it is bound to. We have already attracted the attention of the British House of Lords last I read thanks to this incident.

Now as for my source of information, I was making a general statement, not based on any actual statistics. I would like to see where you got the 36%. However, I must also ask, is that 36% for overall crime levels, or just murders? Does the figure include middle east nations which operate under a completely different kind of culture and influences, or is it based on western countries with similar cultures and influences such as ours? I am fairly certain that looking at similar cultures and the murder rate alone - not including things like robbery and other non-capital offense charges - we would find that there is little difference between the countries that uphold capital punishment and those that do not.

[TriniXaeno]

and while old men talk, young men die.

that has always been the problem.

Yes, there is a right way to deal with the issues at hand, the problem is, everyone is talking about it an no one is actually DEALING with it. If you're not going to hang them, who is gonna remain vigilant to ensure these guys aren't out walking the street in a few years when they are "off the radar". Better question, who is gonna collar them when they do make it out, should they get back up to mischief.

Repeat offenders iwmc.

If the govt and public services would be 80% Action and 20% talk and not the other way around, we won't be having this discussion.

I always remember the story about the talants.

If you give a guy $5.00 and in 1 years time he brings you back $500.00
bet yuh mc, you gonna give that fella more money.

If you give another $5.00 and in 1 years time he comin to ask for loan, he is a waste of mc time.

Who is going to give laventille that $5 and expect them to become prosperous in the short term? It ain't that simple, trying to get blood from stone.

I don't envy the man who has to go in there and turn the society into a productive one overnight. Achieving what generations of "hand outs" have failed to do. Let alone in one 5 year term.

Much easier said than done.

Add to that, many ambitious people would have long since moved on to green pastures rather than stay to fight that uphill battle.

[orginalvexman]

 yuh see  to fix the crime problem in this country we need to speed up the justice system  cause i am sure the majority of people who are doing these crimes have a record but are always out on bail we should have  a system similar to america 3 strikes and yuh out cause if u are not doing anything for the country  just causing trouble lock u away .

Cause i  cant understand why  u want to kill a man who trying to make a honest living and when bad happen to u  they wandering what happen how this happen to memakes no sense.

[W1nTry]

There are some very informative and interesting views in this thread, much cudos to man like sideswipe (or woman as the case my be). I personally am PRO death and all its worst form depending on the nature and cause of the crime commited. That could just be my predominant ethnicity speaking as the homeland is/was a very violent place. I do not think that ppl should be left to rot in a jail cell all their lives as that to me is a waste of my and your tax paying dollars. Why should we have to pay to support the degenerate of the society whom in most instances learn more ill deads whilst in prison. Those on death row are there for a reason and I think if u witnessed first hand the atrocious crimes against humanity itself u may change ur otherwise pro-life/optimistic view of keeping these creatures.

You have to understand that if you are willing to take life (as most are) then you should be prepared to have your own forfeit. At least that's my stance on things. I have NO tolerance for murderers and rapist and more recently kidnappers. I also adhere to the fact that an innocent man/woman can be wrongfully accused and put to death. However this is what is known as acceptable risk. When u go to war u KNOW that all ur soldiers are NOT coming home. But for the greater good (or bad in some cases) u do it because it must be done.

In the least, those that are sentensed to death or life/multi life sentences should be made to pay in blood PLUS in labour for their crimes. I think that for them to stay in a prison and live is not as bad as ppl think it is. Sure u can (as trini says: come out a 'different' man) but think about how the reform system does NOT work and u end up with bitter, more dangerous ppl coming back out. I say life sentences should be hard manual labour BUT with a PURPOSE. Why not make all these inmates grow crops for us?  repair things? build things? for GOD's sake MAKE them give back to society that which they have so willingly taken away. Sure u cannot put a value on human life but tell that to the person who is now fatherless, childless, brotherless, explain to them that their loved one is not coming home and the person who did it will sit behind bars to rot. I am not going to go into the things I would personally do to someone who hurt/killed anyone dear to me cause i'll get charged here and now but I say that world over the justice system does NOT work well, save a few (VERY HARSH) countries where crime is NOT tolerated at all.

Our government is impotent, stupid, wasteful, self serving, antiquainted and aimlessly defiant to itself. I think they should be hung, shot, beheaded, gutted, nuttered, etc. (just a lil insight into what I think criminals SHOULD suffer under). I recently say the matura police station. Which btw is a HOUSE, some police officers HOUSE!!!!. We have decrepit schools, arson gangs in schools, gang warefare daily, kidnappings DAILY, murders DAILY, robberys DAILY, rapes (most NEVER REPORTED go UWI and ask, u'd be surprise how many ppl its happened to) and this and more and they want to build a ESTIMATED 850MILLION dollar sports complex?? SPORTS COMPLEX? St. Anns hospital for the mentally ill has no follow up process and most patients suffer (u think jail bad), our public hospitals are decrepit and dr.s are known to make bad calls. I had a friend whos cousin DIED in sando gen after months cause they misdaignosed CANCER FOR MONTHS!!!! WDF!!!

*sighs* before things can become good again it seems something catastrophically bad has to happen. We trini's seem to take the life that God has given us for granted and I say a NO tolerance attitude towards offenders is only part of the START we need to make. We also as a community have to take it upon ourselves to teach the young the 'right' way to live (again education in a mess but we building sports complex). I cyah say no more I wil blow a gasket or something.. daz my 10c for now.

[Mugsy]

Sideswipe i cnan understand how it may seem that the sudden decisions to adopt hangings may see like a knee jerk reaction but have u ever considered the fact that the government has finally realised that the country is fast approaching a state of total chaos and are desperately trying to implement measures to deal with it. I mean "desperate times call for desperate measures right? So shouldnt we at least wait to see if hangings reduce the amount of crime in this country.

I totally agree with you on the government budget though. I think anybody with at least a 3 in accounts could probably make a better budget than them clowns in parliament. What really ticked me off about that budget was that we spent how many billions building a series of stadiums (i'm not sure of the plural of this word) around he country, which now are in a semi-abandoned condition. Most are in need of repairs from an actual lack of use of the facility. Yet the government wants to build yet another more expensive complex!!! I mean wtf yuh going and do tha shit for. we doh use he ones we have now and u going and build another one. and then they wanna come and talk about oh how the prisons overcrowed and they trying to deal with the situation and thats why some cases take so long to be processed because they trying to make spaces in the jail. I say take the sports complex money and build a friggin jail cell(equipped with torture chamber)

[Trinitus]

As far as the Police service is concerned, new systems are needed, I myself am going into the service and from what i have seen so far is that they are implementing new TRaining procedures for us to deal with crime. In regard with Beago statement "shoot to kill" (sound like meh faddah) I agree 100%, mainly because criminals go and commit their felonies with the intention that they will get away, ppl dont go with the mentality that they may be shot, if they can avoid it they will!! I say...Shot them....shoot them dead....and do it b4 we do....having our own local vigilanties and batmen would be real nice....help de bobolie police who doh do nuttin!! But as far as the shoot to kill action that is highly reccomended, make dem criminal think twice about what they are about to do.