Author Topic: Russia attacks Georgia?!  (Read 2598 times)

Offline Grim Reaper

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Russia attacks Georgia?!
« on: August 07, 2007, 12:35:08 PM »
Quote
Georgia in Russian attack claim

Russia has committed an "act of aggression" against Georgia by firing a guided missile at its territory, officials in Tbilisi say.

They say the missile landed outside the village of Tsitelubani on Monday, some 60km (37 miles) north-west of the capital Tbilisi, but did not explode.

Georgia has now made a formal protest to Russia over the incident. Moscow denies all the accusations.

Relations between the two countries have been strained in recent years.

Moscow is angry about Georgia's plans to join Nato, while Tbilisi accuses Russia of trying to destabilise Georgia.

'Powerful missile'

Georgian officials say two Russian "Su-type" jets launched the missile at 1930 (1530 GMT) on Monday.
 

Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Ustiashvili told the BBC the planes had flown some 70km (43 miles) over Georgia, firing the "modern and powerful" rocket, which weighed about a ton.

Mr Ustiashvhili said the jets flew from a Russian base in the North Caucasus before firing the missile, which landed just metres from a house.

Local resident Ilia Psuturi told Reuters news agency: "I was sitting in my garden... when I saw a plane in the sky.

"I then saw smoke rising from the ground up to the sky and only then did I hear the explosion. The plane then turned around," he said.

Georgian officials said they had gathered fragments of missile fins and other debris near a small crater where the rocket landed.

"It has become common practice for the Russian air force and for the government troops to sneak into the Georgian territory," Mr Ustiashvili said.

"But what is different in this incident... is that they have threatened Georgian airspace much deeper, and that they have used a very powerful bomb."

Georgian Foreign Minister Gela Bezhuashvili told the BBC the missile firing was an "act of aggression".

He said foreign diplomats in Georgia were being asked for a "stronger and clear-cut response" to the incident from the international community.

South Ossetia theory

Earlier on Tuesday, Georgia's foreign ministry handed a note of protest to the Russian ambassador in Tbilisi, although Moscow continued to deny all accusations.

"Russia's air force neither on Monday nor Tuesday flew flights over Georgia," said Col Alexander Drobyshevsky, an aide to the commander of Russia's air force.

"Russia has not violated the borders of sovereign Georgia."

Tsitelubani is not far from Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, which receives political support from Moscow, says the BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow.

South Ossetia's leader Eduard Kokoiti said Georgian planes fired the missile to discredit Russia.

"This is a well-planned provocation," said Mr Kokoiti, who holds Russian citizenship.

But a Russian defence analyst, Alexander Golts, said that without objective, hard information on the incident, it was impossible to lay the blame on either Russian or Georgian aircraft.

"While no one can say for sure whether it was a fuel tank or a rocket or a bomb which fell, I fail to see why a Russian plane would bomb territory close to South Ossetia," he told the BBC News website.

Strained relations

The conflicting accounts of the incident reflect ongoing tensions between Georgia and Russia, our correspondent says.

Relations between Moscow and Tbilisi deteriorated sharply last year when Georgia expelled four Russian army officers it accused of spying.

The deportation triggered a furious diplomatic row, with Moscow imposing economic sanctions against its neighbour and deporting a number of Georgians.

Georgian officials have frequently claimed that Russian military aircraft have violated its airspace - accusations always denied by Russia.

The worst problems have usually been related to regional conflicts - the frozen conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Many Georgians accuse Russia of imperialism, while Russia criticises Georgia for nationalism and pursuing an anti-Russian foreign policy.

Source

I'm not really surprised at this, however, the future developments will be interesting.

Quote from:  Grim Reaper
I agree that a few US soldiers have done some horrible things to Iraqis. This is in turn should naturally make some Iraqi fearful of US troops and that's perfectly fine.

Carigamers

Russia attacks Georgia?!
« on: August 07, 2007, 12:35:08 PM »

Offline TrinireturnofGamez

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 06:13:14 PM »
 Probably intimidation tactics.. or a simple accident .  War at this point makes no sense... Unless Georgia has some valuable resource ie. oil...
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Offline Grim Reaper

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 11:25:38 PM »
Yes, I believe you are correct about Russia's rank regarding resources Laertes. Many people think that war is only fought for natural resources, but it's obviously not always the case. This tension between Russia and Georgia is for political and geographical issues within certain regions of Georgia, such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The Georgian government isn't influenced by Russia as much as the Russian government would want Georgia to be within their sphere of regional influence. Georgia's government leans towards the West and seeks to join Nato and the EU, Russia of course, highly disapproves of such actions.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 11:31:55 PM by Grim Reaper »

Quote from:  Grim Reaper
I agree that a few US soldiers have done some horrible things to Iraqis. This is in turn should naturally make some Iraqi fearful of US troops and that's perfectly fine.

Offline TrinireturnofGamez

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 12:47:41 AM »
 Unless a country is under direct threat , war is usually only fought with profit in mind , that means natural resources.

The US war of independence and the civil war were also fought over economic concerns  , unfair taxation and slavery .

 Wars were fought over Trinidad and parts of the West Indies when the triangular sugar trade brought the british empire 60% of its income .


Russia is under no direct threat and it won't profit them to invade Georgia , any imperialistic mindset falls second place to economics .

 That is exactly why war at this point makes no sense. Probably the Kremlin is trying to soften up Georgia to accept peaceful agreements . 


Or according to Occam's razor , the simplest answer is true.

Some n00b pilot went on a joy ride and tried to blow up somebody cow.
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Offline Gambitt

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 10:01:27 AM »
Unless a country is under direct threat , war is usually only fought with profit in mind , that means natural resources.

Not totally true. The theory that always stays with me is the theory of the "Three G's."

My history teacher said that there are three g's, Gold, God and Glory, I remember that they used to be in that order. Profit, religion and personal standing.

We can all see the first G. The second G is probably not as much of an issue here as in other conflicts. The last G however is a tough one to call. When it applies to an individual its often easy to see. But as it applies to a whole nation... it's not so easy at all.

BTW as I said the theory is not mine it was passed on to me by my histroy teacher, if yuh doh like it, take it up with Mr. Piggott himself.
Vir insipiens non cognoscet et stultus non intelleget haec

Carigamers

Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 10:01:27 AM »

Offline Grim Reaper

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 11:15:55 AM »
I have some updated information concerning this topic here.

Quote
Georgia: 'Proof' of missile attack

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) -- Georgia said Wednesday it has proof that Russian jets violated its airspace and released a missile that landed near a house. Russia has denied the claim.

Georgia's Foreign Ministry issued a formal protest, calling the intrusion and firing of the missile "undisguised aggression and a gross violation of sovereignty of the country."

The Georgian Foreign Ministry said Wednesday that radar records compatible with NATO standards showed that a Russian Su-24 jet had flown from Russia into Georgia and launched a missile, which did not explode.

Investigators identified the weapon as the Russian-made Raduga Kh-58 missile designed to hit radars, the ministry said. The missile, code-named by NATO as AS-11, carried a warhead of over 300 pounds of TNT, it said. Russia's air force has flatly denied that its planes had crossed into Georgia's airspace.

Georgia has long accused Russia of trying to destabilize the country and of backing separatists in its breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which Saakashvili has pledged to bring back under central government control.

The Gori region, where the missile was dropped, is next to South Ossetia. Gen. Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers patrolling South Ossetia, said an unidentified aircraft dropped the missile after flying over South Ossetia and coming under fire from the ground.

Kulakhmetov suggested the plane came from Georgia. Boris Chochiyev, a deputy prime minister in South Ossetia's separatist government, accused Georgia of dropping the missile.

The Georgian Foreign Ministry emphasized Wednesday that the nation doesn't have Su-24 jets or missiles of that type.

Relations between Russia and Georgia have been strained ever since Saakashvili was elected president in early 2004 and made clear his intentions to move the former Soviet republic closer to the West and join NATO.

Source

There is also an article from a Russian news site here.

Quote from:  Grim Reaper
I agree that a few US soldiers have done some horrible things to Iraqis. This is in turn should naturally make some Iraqi fearful of US troops and that's perfectly fine.

Offline TrinireturnofGamez

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 02:12:11 PM »
'Gold, God, Glory'  does hold up pretty well , a successful war would boost a politican's standing ,or kill it as we'v seen with Bush so , Glory.. 
   Bush is supposedly fighting 'evil' .. so God..
   And his Haliburton buddies are making billions , so , Gold .

 Still , a war with Georgia would win Russia more infamy than glory , and still make no sense . It would be easier to annex them with economic and political initiatives .
 

At most i believe this is just a reminder to Georgia how easily 'accidents' might occur , and to intimidate them into accepting what the Kremlin wants .
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 02:15:23 PM by TrinithereturnofGamez »
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Offline Gambitt

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Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2007, 10:22:43 AM »
Infamy is a form of glory. Your scenario with Russia setting themselves up as the "we can and will smash you whenever we feel if you dont behave" can be seen as a form of glory. And it applies to all their neighbours or political opponents.

Russia probably cannot afford to give political and economic incentives. Besides, if they do that it would make them "weak", losing them the glory. Then there are, as I said, other angles that you need to keep an eye on. Glory for the commanders involved in the war, power due to glory passed on tho their political allies, gold in the form of weapons contracts (didnt they announce a new SAM the other day), glory attendant on having more powerful weapons.

When you are looking at a man or at historically small armies from tiny, one-city countries, it's easier to see the 3 G's. Now....
Vir insipiens non cognoscet et stultus non intelleget haec

Carigamers

Re: Russia attacks Georgia?!
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2007, 10:22:43 AM »

 


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